By CJ on 10-27-09
HAHAHAHHHA well it had to happen and will continue to happen! The gunhappy backwoods idiots will continue to masacure wolves now as they are other wild animals and leave them to rot. Are you happy boys, you’ve accomplished your goals. All you macho hunters with your toys out there in the woods killing anything that moves! God forgive you because I won’t!
By hotfishmt on 10-27-09
HAY…...CJ: go back to your home state an have a Latte on me…..and get mugged while you are there.
You don’t support crappola…....hunters & fisherman with “taxes” on everything they buy….pay the bill for the wild animals….not coffee drinking at the local swap lies Lattee Gathering Place. When was the last real thing you did to help wild animals….besides bad mouthing outdoor people?????
And, if you are from Montana…...must have been a deprived child. Better yet…..go to some Foreign Country and help the under educated starving people get CLEAN WATER…..and leave Montana alone.
By skyranch on 10-27-09
I was really hoping this would not happen. The hunters have always depicted themselves as conservationists that follow the rules, but now we have this. Please publish this man’s name and address. And hunters, please let him know that this was not cool and hurts your cause. Police yourselves.
By CJ on 10-27-09
Hotfish you are absurd. I am sorry you always think it is someone from another state or a “latte” drinking socialite that has these opionions. You sound just like the kind i describe in my first post and make yourself look ridiculous.Skyranch you are absolutely right but the idiots are NOT conservationists, they are hunters and thats all they know. It will not do any good to publish his name because if you have been reading the posts a lot of these so called hunters are happy with what this guy did. And….they will never find the one the shot the other one or the elk bull moose and left it to rot. These guys are backwoods hicks that have no regard for anything, including animals or recreation areas. Go look at leisure park now. It is a dump! trash everywhere and four wheelers still digging ruts where once pristine trails were laid. And if you think these guys care about ANY area you are wrong. They will tear up any area with their monster trucks and four wheelers. They will kill just to kill. That is the nature of this beast. Right hotfish???? Sorry sweetie, i’m not going anywhere so yell and scream all you want, you won’t make any difference other than showing your ignorance!
By grannysgadgets on 10-27-09
WOW…. CJ you just created a real life boogyman !! love LOVE love how you take and lump ALL outdoorsmen/women into one evil pile ! Why so cynical ? I will be the first to say that this man has done WRONG, as many of my fellow hunters would as well. BUT to sit here and post such slander against those that I dont know, dont share your views ? I feel is unjust. I would be willing to bet that the majority of us hunters hold more respect for the animals we hunt, then you do for your fellow humans that just are not like you, that is the epitome of ignorance !
By Kokanee on 10-27-09
Granny you know what it is with this movement towards save everything do nothing group.They have no connection with the past, they forget where there foods come from, most of them I would imagine couldn’t tell the difference between a “greenie” and pile of deer manure in a pasture, none of them have bottle fed bummers only to have them die on “your watch”. Just plain disconnected from life and death they say they have the highest regard for life but have never had their hands dirty from death.How can that be? That we have a nation of people that cannot or will not see,they run from one do good poster child to another.It was not that long ago it was the grizz,the panda,and a whole plethora of others.Wolves I guess are the new call to battle for them.
By grannysgadgets on 10-27-09
Kokanee : Very well put ! Thank you !
By mitch on 10-27-09
If you read back thru these letters with an open mind, you will see your posts are basically the same. CJ has lumped all gun folk together, and it’s bound to happen. For any who are against killing, shooting or whatever, the pounding on the chest knuckledraggers are putting on their usual show. Of course all gun owners are not such slobs, but when the letters side with an illegal kill and you don’t speak up, except to rant, makes all the gun guys seem a little nutz. You others strongly object to the anti-poaching letters, but are right there to call names and throw accusations at the rest of us. Granny says she has more respect for the animals than those of us who do not wish to see them slaughtered. Ummmm, I don’t think so granny Kok says, well, a lot of accusations that he pulled out of the air….or wherever he pulled them out of. Hotfish, you spewed a bunch of nonsense out when you really have no clue as to what the rest of us support, or what and where we drink. You look pretty silly when you choose to tell others what they believe in, or why they believe in what they do. So basically, you wrote exactly with the same style that CJ wrote. Not much to be taken seriously on these posts, except the note by skyranch. Thanks for a little common sense post.
By JB on 10-28-09
@mitch: Good summation - for once, I agree with you. Thanks for separating the wheat from the chaff. We all enjoy Montana’s great outdoors in our own way - it is one of the reasons why many of us choose to live here. Responsible use ensures that it still exists for us and for future generations to enjoy.
By spartanmt on 10-28-09
a gentleman from east of the divide commented in another montana newspaper that he’s “run into a lot of hunters from the Kalispell/Columbia Falls area” and that he “isn’t surprised that they shot something illegally; they shoot everything; horses cows, etc.” is there perhaps a cultural difference between hunters on the east and west sides? i know drivers in flathead county are shockingly rude compared to their neighbors to the east. he also suggests that FWP hold more hunter safety classes in our region, and i wonder if this would help.
By Bluesman on 10-28-09
Just a note to say “Thanks” to the “hunter” for illegally killing 2 wolves and giving the anti-gun/hunting crowd something else to crow about. Nice job. Idiot.
By grannysgadgets on 10-28-09
Bluesman : Yep, anything to try to push their agendas through. Even if it takes trying to make it appear that we are nothing but apples, and well a few ” bad guys”, can spoil the whole bunch of us ! But ya know, it’s ok. They will still complain, gripe, and degrade…..... I will still hunt, fish, enjoy the outdoors , and uphold the 2nd !!! 2 sides of the fence, and non of us are going to cross over to the other….. Good fences make for good neighbors !
By hotfishmt on 10-28-09
I guess what I wrote a couple of days ago…..was not understood. The outdoors people in the USA….fund most projects that perserve animal habitat and expansion of new habitat. Taxes paid on each license, on each firearm, each fising reel, on each box of ammo…....that money money goes in the kitty for projects…..which include Wolf research and in Montana’s case…...wolf studies an control. The way wildlife in the USA has expanded their territory…....from birds to deer to wolves….......hunting big game in some many areas is mostly possible due to sportsman purchasing outdoor products.
Yes….someone did shoot 2 wolves. That could not happen without the $$ sportsman put into the wildlife fund to expand the various prorgams around the USA. The Wolf Recovery would be ground zero without the sportsman.
How many of you on lookers have actually done one thing good for wildlife…...that others can see.
I have…...back in the 70’s in Michigan…..I gave 110% to help get a Bottle Bill passed in that state. MUCC awarded me for my achievement and the bottle bill was passed. Now for you non hunters WHY…not do something worthwhile…......get a bottle bill passed Nationwide…....and stop polluting the roadways & streams with your plastic water bottles
All sportsmans are not bad people…..just like all shop-a-holics are not bad people, or people that drive gas guzzling SUV’s.There are WAY MORE bad drivers than bad sportsman…talking on the cell phones and driving badly.
By jimbo on 10-28-09
Please, there has always been a rift between east side “shooters” and west side “hunters”. My friend owns a lot of land over on the Milk River, he always talks about those “eastern MT outlaws”, they don’t start “hunting” until 9 or 10 AT NIGHT!!. Everyone has their opinions.
How many east side license plates do you see here to hunt. Very, very few. They don’t like to come here buck the brush, climb hills and actually have to hunt. They all stay over there and hate us for heading that way to hunt, so they talk a lot of smack.
Bottom line is the moron should not have shot the wolves. Along with the fine, he should lose his hunting license for about 10 years. We are dang lucky to even have this season, we are going to get one chance at wolf mgt, if we screw it up, they will be back on the list, never to come off and we will have nobody to blame but ourselves(hunters). So, with that said, I better not hear of anyone shooting one and leaving it, you check that animal, or find someone with a tag to check it. I will turn your poaching butt in and not lose a moments sleep over it. I hate poachers, and I hate barstool biologists. Don’t be stupid, play the game, follow the rules. That is my warning to any and all poachers who call themselves hunters.
By TeeAitch on 10-28-09
It’s breathtaking to read how wrong most of these posts are. If you are an extremist on either side, you are just wrong. For the record, I was born in Kalispell more than six decades ago. My father was born here, and his father came here with his family when he was six years old. So this is not coming from a “newcomer” necessarily, although it certainly depends on your perspective.
While I have hunted, and grew up around firearms and a hunting culture, I have never been much of a hunter myself. However, my dad was a consummate hunter. The oldest of 14 children during the depression, he learned to hunt as a means of helping to provide for the family when they had nothing. One of the first lessons I ever learned from him was that I should only kill what I would eat. (The exceptions were gophers and rats, which my father disliked probably disproportionately.) He looked upon so-called “trophy” hunters with disdain. Although he killed countless deer and elk, we never had any kind of a mount anywhere in our home. If he was proud that he’d taken a many-point buck or bull, he’d take a picture of it. Still, as it was legal then, he preferred to take a doe or cow, as they were usually better eating.
My point is that Dad, while he loved the sport of hunting with all his heart and soul, never did and never would have killed a wolf. He would have asked, “Why would I?” It made absolutely no sense to him. He would kill an animal that he wouldn’t want to eat in self-defense, and on one occasion to protect the meat he’d just killed, but saw absolutely no point in killing something just to kill it.
On the other hand, neither he nor I can understand why anti-hunting advocates would deny human beings their natural and millenia-old desire to hunt for food, except as part of their own lust to control others.
So my message to both extreme sides is get a grip. Accept that others have a legitimately differing point of view. And to those who illegally kill animals, know that you are providing fodder to those who would ban all hunting forever. Although I know it’s hard for you, try not to be stupid.
By Kokanee on 10-28-09
My statements are just that not accusations. I was addressing what I believe to be a problem that causes many rifts between hunters and non hunters. It seems that many are far removed and insulated from the fact of through death there comes life albeit flora or fauna it has to be turned into calories to sustain life. Now, I abhor waste, killing just to kill is high on my list of infractions. It pains me to throw away leftovers with that said a public whipping of 20 lashes is what my sentence would deliver if I were judge and jury of this case.Now for a quote"All you macho hunters with your toys out there in the woods killing anything that moves! God forgive you because I won’t!” is this not prejudiced stereotyping and Mitch you yourself have participated in your share of lumping as well as so do not throw stones.
By Billy on 10-28-09
I can see from the last group of posts, the message from the people who’s families were hunters and fisherman and farmers and ranchers and woodsmen, have a real feel for what is right and wrong in what we generally call hunting.
Providing for the family table is an honorable thing.
As long as we show courtesy and respect to man and animal, there shouldn’t be any issues with hunting. Either for food or sport.
By grannysgadgets on 10-28-09
Kokanee, TeeAitch, Jimbo, and Hotfish : all very good words of wisdom posted here. I fully understand that this is a highly heated issue, and emotions do tend to come through in our posts. It is true that the honest law abiding hunter worries about animal populations. It is our highest concern that the numbers hold steady, if not rise. Why would we choose to see that which we hunt vanish ? that by no means would make any sense ! YES, you can respect that which you hunt, much like a farmer respects the animal he raises, then slaughters. or the seed he plants, and then harvests . I can see how if you are on the extreme other side of this, you can be blind from any form of understanding, but I do not understand so grotesquely drawing a picture of all that hunt being ” back woods hicks, killing anything that moves, no regard for anything, rut digging, trash throwing, beasts ?. I think some need to uncover their ears, open their eyes ! No we are not like you, but the picture that you attempt to paint is as false, as the point you try to make….... 100% agree Kokanee prejudiced sterotyping at its ” WORST”.
By CJ on 10-28-09
TeeAitch, thank you for your post. However, I do not believe anyone else READ what you wrote. If in time of need (as you stated so clearly) a man hunts to feed his family, that is an honorable hunt. And as you said, that man, would NEVER CONSIDER hunting something that he cannot eat. And his walls (as an honorable hunter) would not be covered with TROPHY’S of his kills. That man respects the animal and in turn his family is fed by the animal as a gift from God. However, in today’s world that is not the case. 90% of you hunters spend thousands on your gear to tromp off in the woods and get your trophy (to hang on the wall) and yes you eat the meat but it is NOT NECESSARY to keep your family alive. And you now ENJOY the idea of being able to kill wolves, as some of you say so over and over in these posts. There is no “reasoning” behind that joy other than the pure fact that you can jump out there and hang another trophy on your wall and tell everybody you did it! Now you (one of you) just killed and left lay to rot. You talk about how much you support wildlife and some even pat themselves for special projects. I agree with the bottles but for every one person that leaves them out there or any other trash, how many of you actually stop to pickup that trash and help clean up Montana. I do every day. I am so sick of picking up trash every day but i do it because i can’t stand to look at it! Clean up your acts hunters and other idiots. If you see a four wheel truck tearing up the wilderness or parks call the cops! I do! If you know of poachers in parks call the cops! I do! And don’t tell me they are not hunting in parks because i find dead bodies all over the place!!! You are all so high and mighty with your “right to hunt”....well again i say, look into the eyes of that animal and you will see God…then see if you can pull the trigger!!!
By Nancy on 10-28-09
Again, the most ridiculous postings. Hunters claim they hunt because there are too many animals and it is to balance out nature…....how about we go and hunt some hunters, there are way to many of you and I’d love to mount your “deer in the headlights stare” on my wall. You want meat? Go to the store.
By mitch on 10-28-09
I did read TeeAitch’s post CJ, and thank you for the reminder to comment on it. I agree with each and every word on that post, and it’s almost like it was written about my father. There was a certain class which our elders possessed, and I am afraid it is gone forever. Also CJ I agree with your thinking, but have long since decided when someone wants only to shout in your face, it’s no sense in attempting a meaningful conversation, as all they are interested in is their own foul words. The ridiculous assumption that we do nothing for the environment because we don’t buy hunting license’s is a good indication that they know nothing of what they speak. Thank you for the litter pickup. What could they be thinking?
By TeeAitch on 10-28-09
True there are some ridiculous postings here. But there are also some measured, reasoned responses. In my experience, one takes a great risk by assuming his or her opinion is the only valid opinion.
“It is unwise to be too sure of one’s own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err.”—Mohandas Ghandi
” I used to think anyone doing anything weird was weird. Now I know that it is the people that call others weird that are weird.”—Paul McCartney
Both prominent vegetarians, I believe.
Nancy appears to be kneeling to worship at her own altar.
By grannysgadgets on 10-28-09
Mitch : I think that you misread my first statement, due to the incorrect quote in your previous post. I did not say that I would bet I respected the animals more then the anit -hunters, but that ” I respected the animals I hunt more so, then they do their fellow man !!! “Just want to make sure that my words you so willingly want to rip to bits taste right in your mouth !!
Unwise words Nancy, you just basically threaten another human life hmmm could this possibly prove the point I made, the exact same one that I just had to correct with Mitch ??
By CJ on 10-28-09
Nancy I understand your anger. No good here tho. Hunters don’t get it. Mitch I hardily agree with you, “what could they be thinking?” Granny, I am trying hard to understand your statement “I respected the animals I hunt more so, then they do their fellow man!!!” Does this mean that because you hunt your respect your fellow man better than the non-hunter? Or does this mean that you respect animals more than your fellow man? Or does this mean you think animals don’t respect humans? Ummm I am confused Granny. Since its very hard for me to understand the word “respect” in conjuntion with “hunting” for sport, I guess I am just from the old school (farmers) that believed you killed to eat and for no other reason. In the days of my grandpa and grandma they had nine kids to feed so they raised “things” to eat. My mom and dad didn’t. They went to the store for food. I go to the store for food and yes we have all had gardens to supplement. But if grandpa hunted it was for food (never did other than rabbit that I can remember and we ate it too). My father would NEVER consider shooting anything and my mother could have but never would…hated the idea! I don’t NEED TO HUNT to eat and neither do you. So your excuses just don’t hold water. You WANT TO HUNT, YOU WANT TO KILL AND BRING HOME YOUR TROPHY so why not be honest!!!
By grannysgadgets on 10-28-09
CJ : My but how you SO easily PRESUME to know each and every person, although I would not know you from Adam or is it Eve ?Your misguided judgement would almost be innocent, if it were not for such vile attempts to reduce those you personally oppose to nothing more then mindless animals.
1st. for your information there is not ONE antler, or fur item hanging in my home, or on any outbuildings ( there are a few white from age drops found laying on hillsides, now laying in my flower beds). So your psychic presumptions right there are wrong from the get go !
2nd. My people have been hunting this continent before yours ever set foot on it, doesnt make me have more of a right then the next American to hunt, but sense you are wanting to talk historical, well there you go !
3rd. I only hunt what I eat, I never said I hunted the wolves ( again, better check that crystal ball of yours, I think it is off course). I hunt, nor eat any other meat eaters for personal reasons. However I also understand that you cannot release the tool for the sick, without having controls in place to keep that in check ! So I do not hate those that choose to hunt meat eaters.
I also have not read 1, not ONE comment that said what this person did was right by killing these wolves in the illegal manner he did !
Last but not least, what right do you really think you have to be able to sit in your rightous computer chair and order how I should feed my family ? Really, you honestly feel that is your right to tell another how to live,eat, to please your personal agenda ?
Finally, I could care less what you think I need to do, much like I am sure your venom would only spew stronger if I told you what I and my personal points of view deem you should do. So I will not waste the time. BUT I will take the time to stand up to your smear campaign, as silence always means acceptance, and for that I DO NOT !
By mitch on 10-28-09
yup, there she goes on the “my people” chant. Ummmm, I don’t remember any of us saying what race/nationality or whatever we are? You think that gives you somekind of special knowledge somehow?
....“the greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way it treats its animals”- Ghandi…
Maybe some of you seen this on the morning news. It’s quite a story, and guaranteed to produce some emotions for those of us who love the animals. http://blogs.ngm.com/blog_central/2009/10/the-story-behind-our-photo-of-grieving-chimps.html You may have to cut and paste, but it’s worth the effort.
For the other’s they will probably only view it as something else to shoot at.
By grannysgadgets on 10-28-09
Mitch….. Try reading the HISTORICAL postings above by others about what ” MY great grandpa, or grandpa” did…..... Its apples to apples, fits with others POSTS ! Or wait a minute, is it only wrong if I then bring up things of my ancestors as well ? so you and your ” others” (as you put it) Hold the monoply on that as well ?Theres that nasty BLIND eye problem.
( Good thing I am not on the racist crying boat, or I’m sure your post would be good cause to blow a whistle !)
Hang on to your all knowing spectacles I ALREADY SEEN THIS VIDEO THIS MORNING ! Not as heartless as you would like to believe, then again I’m sure most of your nasty judgements could be proven wrong, but it is not like you would care to try some form of understanding, that would be asking to much by those OTHER people !!!!
By Kokanee on 10-28-09
I think that comments on the subject of hunters/hunting show how emotionally fueled the passions are on both sides. The pro hunting crowd has the same points that we use as our mantra and equally on the anti hunting side. It was great men and women that started a conservation movement over a century and a half ago this in era that had just conquered the west and thought there would be no end to the buffalo.These people were made up of all walks of life and profession but they believed in one thing, if we did not create a system of laws,regulations and safe havens there would be no wildlife for the future generations.That said those of you that have the belief that animals shouldn’t be harmed by humans feel this connection with them like it is a part of your soul. The same soul like feeling is what some of us feel when we go to hunt yes I agree it is primal but for some it is a need as is yours. My point is this I respect men and women who stand up for what they believe,I respect men and women who do things to promote their cause. I have no respect for any on either side that cannot see the need for a mutual partnership on conservation of endemic species in this country. This has been tried with the wolf recently and other species in the past the problem is too many good ideas have come to fruition just to realize maybe it was not the best idea. Remarkably we are not as God like in our biology departments as we would like to be. Our predecessors were able to put together laws create national parks and wildlife refuges and not everyone was happy but they got it done without being worried if it was politically correct. So stop and listen to your fellow conservationist you might find an ally our at least some common ground
By Scott on 10-28-09
To Nancy and CJ:
While I understand how a few bad apples can certainly stain your opinion about hunters, I will say that for the most part they are decent people. I have hunted all my life and I have a few observations:
1. There are generally two groups that I would place hunters in:
A: The conversationalist who enjoy hunting and the outdoors. These folks generally hunt because they like the meat and many of them sustain their families for a year on elk or deer and choose to pass on cattle. These folks also tend to be animal lovers and have compassionate views towards animals.
B: People who enjoy guns, alcohol and go out killing just to kill. They are more likely to poach, ignore state laws and safety regulations and these scumbags love to waste life and animal meat. These are the guys that I have run into a time or two in my life that don’t mind seeing animals suffer nor do they mind leaving the poor animal to rot.
I would guesstimate that 95% of the hunters out there fall into category A. The category B people(and most of us know at least one) are cruel and lack empathy and those of us in the sportsman community tend to avoid them like the plague both personally AND professionally.
In terms of the Wolf argument, the only time I myself would feel justified in shooting one is either defending myself or my horses and cattle. I have heard a calf screaming as it was eating alive by wolves and it is certainly something I will never forget. However….The last time I checked, we don’t eat dogs in the United States so there is little reason in my mind to take the life of a wolf. The Montana fish and game department obviously feels differently and they have started managing them like they do other wildlife in Montana.
As a hunter, I REALLY don’t like the idea of hunting wolves because they lack little value in terms of food. I don’t believe in killing just to kill and I think that at the end of the day, that is exactly what this is. I am afraid that we will be teaching new younger hunters exactly that when they hunt wolves and I fear that some of them will end up in category B. The Fish and Wildlife folks need to manage these animals more carefully and leave the hunting to animals that we can feed ourselves with.
I have no problem with ranchers protecting their livestock but I do have a problem with folks going out there and shooting these animals only to leave the carcass rotting after the kill.
By Bluesman on 10-29-09
Interesting comments from some real generalists. I’m wondering….how does one know that I don’t NEED to hunt to eat? While that may be truer than it used to be, I’ve fed my family on wild game for a good number of years out of necessity. Not all of us are well-to-do yuppie types who can stroll to the store and pay 3 bucks a pound for burger. In this economy, many folks I know will be subsisting on the meat they obtain this hunting season and for several more to come, undoubtedly. Perhaps if Nancy would like to ban hunting altogether, she’d be willing to help feed them and their children?
The people I’ve hunted with have the greatest respect for the outdoors and the animals they hunt. Interestingly enough, not one of them has availed themselves of a wolf tag. Why? You don’t eat them.
By Kokanee on 10-29-09
For me the question that remains and not one person has answered or even attempted to address is why. Why were they brought back. This is an attempt to understand the reasoning for this grand experiment.Also I would like to add Granny you can speak for me anytime.
By CJ on 10-29-09
Why were the bison brought back? Why are we (conservationists) trying to save animals that are near extinction? Why are these chimps in a protective area? Why are the polar bears in trouble? Why are the grizz protected? Sheesh guys, you just don’t get it do you? It doesn’t matter WHAT YOUR GRANDPAS OR GRANDMAS WERE OR DID! It is what YOU DO that counts. You say you respect the wilderness and only hunt for food (some of you) and your proud of that? Yes the management of these animals sucks! No one should be allowed to hunt wolves, bear or cats. They will do the job of culling the herds so that we are not overrun with deer, etc. But yeah, go ahead and kill them all and watch what happens with the rest. If you are afraid of them or have your “sheep” in their space then you need to move on. They are “wild animals” and need to be left alone. If they are in your back yards you have caused that (I know one person that feeds everything and is surprised when bear come through to eat too). This is their country and now we want to run them off so your “hunting” is better. Well don’t forget you are an animal too and someday something will come along and run you off so that nature will be able to balance herself out again. Animals have more respect for their surroundings and each other than humans will ever have. Have your “fun” boys, there will be payback…oh and i bet your all “happy” that our little state will soon be known as the “gun capitol of the US” right??????
By Kokanee on 10-29-09
So C.J again you have not attempted to answer my question. You have asked me several questions and again tried to vilify me and others like me. Threatened hunters with “payback” and your last statement is to incite gun owners. You should not work so hard on our behalf to prove us right.
By Bluesman on 10-29-09
Who said it was a matter of pride? It’s a matter of subsistence for many. No one said anything about killing them ALL, either, nor “running them all off”.
Fact is, game populations have to be managed, and we do a fair job of that.
CJ, maybe you should get some education (try some local biologists, maybe) and stop trying to be the Glenn Beck of the anti hunting crowd. Knee-jerk emotional claptrap accomplishes nothing and just makes you look foolish.
By Bluesman on 10-29-09
I’m going to take a stab at answering your question, Kokanee.
It appears to me an attemt to restore some of the natural order of things. Wolves serve a purpose in the food chain by culling the weak, sick, and slow. A friend of mine who guides in central Idaho said that while he adamantly opposed the reintroduction, he’s noticed the return of many animals (martens, foxes and such)that were nearly gone prior to the reintroduction; these are animals that depend on wolf kills for some of their their food (read up on the circle of carrion). He also said that while elk populations seem down some, the ones that are left are bigger, smarter and healthier.
It seems obvious (to me anyway) that when you disrupt the food chain it has far reaching effects that may not be immediately obvious.
Wolves will have to be managed to be sure, but I for one am happy that they are there and I might be lucky enough to see them in their natural element, doing what wolves do. It’s better than only being able to see a stuffed one and saying ” Yeah, they used to live here before they were driven to extinction.”
By grannysgadgets on 10-29-09
CJ:I’ve never hunted a buffalo, a chimp, a polar bear, nor a grizzly ! Nor do I desire too. I’m not sure who you are comparing the majority of us to. I dont litter ( as a matter of fact I also carry garbage bags so that I can pick up any litter that I come across. See we are not the ” bad guys”, and as suggested before you may even see things in common with us !) you pronounce now that it does not matter what the grandparents did, but I will point out that you were one of the first to bring that exact thing up, so it is only in response that many also brought up theirs. It’s really not worth responding to the rest of your rant, as it is just more of the same pointless rage, well other then the ” gun state” part, and yes I am proud of that !Kokanee : Well thank you, and your words as well could speak for me anytime ! I cannot answer your question, as the more I study into it, the more confused I become. We did have a native species of wolf that exsisted here ( smaller then the ones planted) The strain that was planted ( from what I can gather) are a strain of Arctic wolf ? If this is in fact true, I’m sure that our native species have been run off, if not vanished, and it is those that should have been protected ! Many times we will find that when man tries to “fix” nature, we only tend to promote another problem…... I believe natures balance is much more intricate then a simple mathmatical solution. One example : surppressing ( naturally occuring) forest fires to the point that we now have literal tinder boxes of dead and diseased forests. just standing there waiting to cause a ” super wild fire”.
But, what do I know, I’m just a Montanan that chooses to hunt, fish, enjoys the outdoors, and believes in the constitution ( 2nd included). So even if that free speech is used to smeer me, and what I believe, I will still uphold that it is your right to say it, and my right to reply !!!
By TeeAitch on 10-29-09
Wow. This has turned out to be a hot topic, although most of the discussion doesn’t have much to do with the ORIGINAL issue, which is the illegal killing of the wolf.My regret is that so many comments have an angry tone, and that some of you apparently think in “my way or the highway” terms, although I shouldn’t be surprised.
I thought I had said all I needed to say, but Kokanee’s question brought up an issue I’ve personally tussled with for a good long while. I still haven’t made up my mind. Even if a species’ decline is due to human behavior (the buffalo, the wolf, and especially the totally extinct passenger pigeon), species become extinct all the time and always have. While professionals become excited about saving the more esoteric species (snail darters, spotted owls) it seems to me that the general public only gets really worked up about the furry species. Tigers, pandas, wolves, grizzlies, polar bears, you get the picture. I believe this is primarily due to anthropomorphism strong enough to dizzy Disney. Although, what does it hurt? I guess stockmen would disagree, but I see it as kind of a hobby that most people who support don’t acutally participate in. Like the NFL.
On the other hand, isn’t this a little bit like trying to save a soap bubble? We (the human race) keep trying to play God, in many, many ways. We always fail. I think the larger problem is that human beings can’t accept themselves as being part of nature, not apart from it. This is probably partly due to religion, and partly due to human nature. I think that if a species becomes extinct because we killed them all (passenger pigeons) then that is the natural order of things, because we humans are part of nature just like all the other animals.
But should we kill them all? Probably not, but we might think differently if we had to contend with Velociraptors. Those of you who think killing for fun is wrong, I pretty much agree with you, but I can’t really back up my belief. It’s just my personal feeling. Those of you who think killing for food is wrong, I totally disagree with. As you can see from some of the comments, some people still hunt to feed their family out of some degree of necessity. True some people never did, but I can tell you I enjoyed those venison chops my Mom used to cook a lot more than I enjoyed the turnips from the garden.
What it boils down to is that we are still animals, not really much different from all the others. Like any other activity, hunting should be done responsibly, and as it is a dangerous activity, should be regulated in this crowded world. But I don’t think anyone has a right to condemn those who hunt simply because they don’t want to hunt themselves, any more than I should condemn those who watch football simply because I don’t like football.
By grannysgadgets on 10-29-09
BRAVO TeeAitch !!!
Kudos for having the ability to express what most of us feel, but able to do so without getting emotional ( I am as guilty as any for that !) we will leave that up to me being a woman, I tend to react with emotion getting mixed into that thought process ! Besides that, again thank you for your well worded post, that I feel walks the middle beautifully !!!
By Kokanee on 10-29-09
Thank you ! Bluesman. There is no doubt that having wolves back in food chain will impact many things. Only time will tell if it is good or bad. These predators have been absent for quite sometime and it seems that we have been doing fine without them. There has been no catastrophic decline in any ecosystems that I know of. I do not want to play biologist but as an active sportsmen I had no trouble locating large or small game in the areas that I hunted till they were brought back.So what I draw from your comment is it makes you feel better that they are here?
By Kokanee on 10-29-09
Great oration TeeAitch . However I disagree on one point the original issue was the illegal taking of two wolves. Had those wolves not been there, well you get my point. I agree on the rest of your points especially the one on seeing ourselves in the animals we admire. Turnips should be eaten raw off the end of your grandfathers pocket knife with a little salt.
By Kokanee on 10-29-09
I was simply baiting you Bluesman I admit it. That is the bottom line as I see it though for most. It created some jobs here and there generated a lot of cash for many groups started a few websites made some lawyers rich some politicians gained favor from there side of the fence but other than that I see no direct benefit that could not have been gained by other means.
By Bluesman on 10-29-09
Yeah, I guess, at some level. I was saying in my original post that the removal of wolves to near extinction had to have a significant impact on the ecosystem, but certainly the reintroduction and increased numbers will as well. That’s where game management comes in. I guess to me it seems like having them back is moving a little toward what was natural in the first place, and I like that. For whatever reason, that seems right to me. You know what I mean?
By Bluesman on 10-29-09
Kokanee: What about the hunting of wolves as a source of revenue? Don’t you think people will want to come here and hunt them? They bring money with them. As much as I dislike trophy hunting, it’s not like we can’t use the dough.
BTW: Turnips should be pulled, washed, boiled, buttered, and promply thrown into the trash, imho. LOL
By grannysgadgets on 10-29-09
OH ! Have to add my two bits on this one…... YES Turnips indeed should be boiled buttered, and thrown in the trash, along with the rutabagas !!!!!! YUCK ( starvation foods, gotta be starving before even thinking about eating them !!) ROFL
By Billy on 10-29-09
My Nez Perce niece says the introduced wolves in Central Idaho are larger than the species from the 1800’s.
Do any of you wolf experts know if these Timber Wolves are original inhabitants.
I can see a larger, deep snow, moose killing wolf from the far north may have an unfair advantage in our woods.
The buffalo fattened, prairie wolf, M. Lewis encountered, he killed with his espontoon.
Although I do not agree with the killing and then leaving to rot, I could see a hunter, thinking wolves are causing a lack of game could take a revenge shot.
By TeeAitch on 10-29-09
OK, I see have to add one more comment.
When I was a kid, I hated turnips and rutabagas. However, my Dad used to make a beef stew with fresh garden tomatoes, turnips, rutabagas, potatoes, barley and red, red wine. I’m drooling just thinking about it, but then what would you expect from a crusty old character like me?
But if you get nothing else from all these posts, take this with you: Grow a row of parsnips, leave them in the ground and cover them with a thick blanket of leaves in the fall. Along about February, dig up a mess of them, peel and wash them, cut them into inch or inch and a half chunks and boil until tender. Then hashbrown them in butter. You might need open heart surgery, but it’s worth it. Bon Appetit, y’all.
By Kokanee on 10-29-09
Ahh you know the lowly turnip they have fed many a family and fueled many compost piles. reviled by many they can be turned into fine table fare.Back onto the subject at hand I guess many of us older Montanan’s have had a connection to guiding in one form or another whether it be making the beds at the guest house or pumping their gas at the gas station. Dudes will always come to hunt our great state but the caveat to that is last year in the economic downturn non resident hunters were way down many outfitters cited that hunters could not justify paying our high fees when our game numbers are going down in traditional high elk density areas. Will the wolf make up for that good question in other areas such as Canada they are an add on bonus to your big game tags moose,elk etc.
By grannysgadgets on 10-29-09
TeeAitch : Hmm you have aroused my curiosity indeed ! My Grandmother used to make a stew with the above mentioned BAD veggies. ( it was a elk stew though) Of course hers was awesome, mine…... well hence the ” yuck” for the old time tested roots.I must admit that I can grow rutabagas and turnips, and they will always flourish =0( Where others will fail. Next spring I may plant a few again, just to try out your suggestion ! From one crusty old character too another ! *cheers*
By Kokanee on 10-29-09
Now this simply will not due members conversing in civil tongue 
we had a similar stew some of us jokingly referred to as everything out of the garden but the dirt soup usually around Sept. before any killing frosts.
By grannysgadgets on 10-29-09
Kokanee : Odd is’nt it ? Then again it is about food, and like it or not, well we all do eat !YES ! I know the soup you you are refering too, we call it ” whatchagot”. Everything goes in it, what ever you got ! LOL much better then rock soup !
Speaking of killing frost, boy this years killing frost snuck up on me, I lost alot of my winter squash, and much of my seed for next year… Moving that mushy mess of squash from garden to compost was not one of the highlights that my green thumbs enjoyed !!!
By Kokanee on 10-29-09
Digression aids in the digestion of points made and thoughts provoked. Bluesman I agree we wrecked the landscape and disrupted this land to no end. Leopold said “Conservation is a state of harmony between men and land.” with this I agree then he said “All conservation of wildness is self-defeating, for to cherish we must see and fondle, and when enough have seen and fondled, there is no wilderness left to cherish.” so I guess it is pretty much what you had said except the part of bringing something back from extinction that does not have the area to roam they once had sort of like a zoo animal.
By skyranch on 10-29-09
A ranger told me that in his opinion the wolves have not diminished the game, but the hunters have become lazy and want to get their animals as close as possible to where their trucks are parked. Could this be true? I believe wolves are being hunted strictly for the thrill. Trophy hunting is legal, but in the long run it just seems to diminish the hunter. Hunting for food is another matter, in my opinion.
By Kokanee on 10-29-09
Well they aren’t eatin TeeAitch’s turnips or parsnips. Here skyranch are the figures that biologists use in some of their equations the avg. wolf eats 8lbs a day on avg. whether it is one big meal every couple of days or little meals every day. Now take that and multiply times 500 for the amount of estimated wolves. Then take into consideration that you will be lucky if you get two to three hundred usable pounds of meat off the average elk.Does anyone have the exact weight of usable meat off of an elk that sounds right just looks funny.
By grannysgadgets on 10-29-09
Skyranch : I have actually hunted in both ways ! The easy one I would assume is the one that you actually have gotten no farther than a mile or so from your vehical and manage to have lady luck on your side, and meat in the freezer. The other side of that…..... hiking till dark, or having ridden horses SO far in that you are sure you have reached a point that NO man has ever stepped. And still going home empty handed. From my experience that latter is what has become the standard for me, I am not one that likes to sit and do the ” big bad wolf” rap, but it is what it is ! I have old hunting haunts, that were always productive ( not meaning there was meat taken every time, but that there was always fresh sign, a few visuals, you knew they were there) These spots are thin of the elk now, however there are more numourus wolf sign, and that haunting howl is now common place to awaken you from sleep. My evaluation would be yes, there is a impact !
Also there is the report from a bag check station that only 6% of the hunters have been harvesting their game so far…...
One would have to hunt the wolf for sport, because I would not consider them food. It is the creation of two evils really, now that the wolf has been planted, and has taken off, there now needs to be controls so that we do not end up with some other animal driven to extinction because of our fixing things. Hence the wolf hunter is now needed, I guess he keeps our hands from having to be bloodied by something we do not want to do ! Kokanee : that sounds about right to me, as far as average elk size / weight minus bones…... in the ball park any how !
By Kokanee on 10-29-09
Well put granny and this year I for once had been lucky. The freeze did not catch me off guard. I guess that means I will get it twice as hard next year.
By grannysgadgets on 10-29-09
Kokanee : OOOooh you were vigilant, I ( well ok) slacked, <blush>, occasionaly I get a big head thinking I can pull a little more time from my garden, and well….... the outcome is MUSH !But I still did my share of canning ( even huckleberry jam !!), dehydrating, and freezing. I did also manage to collect alot of seed….. You wont get hit twice as hard, just dont assume as I, that you can wait one more day !
By Scott on 10-29-09
CJ, I find quite a bit of ignorance in the responses that you have posted here. Please allow me help you with your ignorance of wild life and hunting in general:
http://fwp.mt.gov/habitat/mtwldlfmgmt.asp
You mentioned that humans are disrespectful to their environment? I suppose that you are setting a great example by :
A: Not owning a house
B: Not owning a vehicle
C: You recycle all of your trash
D: You only buy clothing that is made from hemp or other plant products and you wash those clothes by hand and dry them in the wind?
Have a nice day.
By Bluesman on 10-29-09
Billy: A “hunter” taking a “revenge” shot would be flat done hunting with me. I’m fussier than that about who I hunt or fish with. It just ain’t the honorable thing to do, if that’s the right word.
Kokanee: Thanks for provoking some more thought. It is a bit like a zoo…for all those critters, really.
By Billy on 10-29-09
Bleisman;Perhaps the wolf shooter will post his explanation and his apologies. I am as sickened as any here about the waste and abuse of our natural treasures as anyone. I’m just trying to figure the thinking of the destroyers.
By Kokanee on 10-29-09
Most definitely Bluesman. Roosevelt,Muir,Audubon,Leopold just to name a few had foresight beyond what I see from our leaders today. It seems like we get knee jerk reactions to problems of conservation today mostly to please some unhappy group.Do not misunderstand me conservation is key but hard decisions for instance like culling the herds in our national parks cannot be made. The public wailing over that would be heard around the world but it had to be done. I just wished it could have been done by allowing man to manage it we generally know when to stop.
By ct on 10-29-09
Thanks Scott you said it perfectly.
By Pika on 10-30-09
Nancy and CJ seem to infer there is more honor in obtaining your meat in the supermarket isle, than shooting it in the wild. That is pretty much how I get mine these days, stalking down the isles of the supermarket, in search of that elusive bargain. But there was a day that I hunted the back country to kill an elk each year and I usually killed one. It always took me a couple of days to pack it out and then a couple of days of painstaking work to cut and wrap it.
This year I bought an entire grass fed buffalo, cut and wrapped. I figure it is the next best thing, health wise, to a wild elk that turns alpine grasses into a souce of protein for my family. It cost me a little over fifteen hundred bucks and took me a total of thirty minutes to pack the whole load into my basement freezer.
I prefer to say that I made the choice to purchase my family meat source because of the time constraints of running businesses and family. Truthfully though, it is more of an energy issue and I prefer not to work so hard these days in order to provide meat for my family. But make no mistake about it, when I fed my family with wild meat harvested at my own hand, I did so by choice and not by necessity. I offer no apologies for that choice.
I have to say that when I go downstairs to retrieve a frozen package of purchased buffalo to thaw, I feel no more honor than when I used to go down to retrieve a package of wild elk or venison that required much of my own time and sweat to obtain.
To those that make the personal choice to harvest wild meat instead of puchasing the meat of an animal raised in confinement for the purpose of slaughter, I will honor your right to do that. Peace.
By Kokanee on 10-30-09
Hmmm’ what is that bitter taste in my mouth must be envy, that sounds very delicious. Thank you for speaking up.
By grannysgadgets on 10-30-09
Pika : beautifully worded !!! As Kokanee said it does sound very delicious ! Thank you for your understanding !
By Off the Grid Couple on 11-02-09
In Matters of style? swim with the current. In Matters of Principle, Stand Like a Rock. Thomas Jefferson.
My Husband and I are Montanans, and we live 100 pct off the grid. And we do hunt, and we eat what we kill. We make things from the hides and sell the hides sometimes. We do not! Belive in wasting ANY FOOD. Be it bought from a store or Killed and gutted and put up. I can assure anyone in here, that ALL hunters we know, would never do this, and would love to take this guy to task for what he has done. He is not a Hunter, he is a throw back to the Buffalo hunters who killed untold thousands just for there hides.
Sincerely
Rhonda
By Kokanee on 11-02-09
Most everyone has condemned this killing out loud but how many have secretly applauded. In my opinion, as the frustration grows with these animals I think that this will occur frequently.I believe that there is animosity towards these animals that has gone from static to pro-active. Meaning that they were against it from the beginning but felt like they could not stop it, to now where they are seeing that it is out of control and have decided to shoot on sight. What I do not believe is that there are many that will follow this thinking only enough to bring a spotlight onto the problem. I just wished there was on organization that was able to help that had no political agenda. The wolf will continue now that they are established I am I fear watching our liberal over the counter licenses ready to disappear FWP will have to go to a resident draw when our big game populations dip below a certain level. That is of course the direction they will have to follow and when the predator prey is in total equilibrium they will stop all hunting that’s my prediction of the future.
By mitch on 11-02-09
I agree with your post, Kokanee, in that this poaching will continue to occur frequently. It is my belief the wolves will be back on the endangered list, but of course that will not end those who choose to take the situation into their own hands. Some, hopefully most, will be caught and penalized. In the meantime they are making this into a very risky situation for those who wish to continue hunting or collecting guns. This has been such a heated subject from the beginning, and actions like this make it so much worse. Instead of appearing to be the macho man (the poacher), it is only in their own mind. This gives the non hunting, anti gun population great ammunition in the battle of whether or not guns should be so easily accessed. When your guns are taken away, look to you neighbor, friend or the person down the block who committed this despicable slaughter. It’s not Washington who wishes “to take away your rights”, it’s because of careless, mindless actions like this who obviously could care less about your hunting/gun rights.
By Kokanee on 11-02-09
Thank you Mitch. I do not know if the word “macho man” is appropriate for this. This was no act of public display to prove how brave or manly you are. This was I believe a defiance to laws and taking matters into your own hands vigilante style. It was Washington that allowed the repatriation of these wolves though without due process if you ask some.
By mitch on 11-02-09
Your reply has me thinking, Kokanee. I had not thought of the wolf poacher as having anything more than death and destruction on his mind. I am thinking of a punk mentality, a cowardly deadly type of vandalism. Sort of the mentality the kid had a couple of weeks ago who shot the cattle. This would be why my term of “macho man”. Thinking perhaps he was accompanied by buddies and was “showing off”.
Your post brings to mind that this could be a lone individual who simply wishes to get rid of the wolves. I wonder how often this would happen as compared to the “showing off” theory. I would think a single, sober individual would think this thru and come to the conclusion that he just might get caught. The law may choose not to release his name, but this is a small community and his identity will eventually come out.
I would be interested in what the due process would be that some feel was not used? I remember very well when the wolves were reintroduced back into Yellowstone. I remember when the cage doors opened. I also remember a lot of studies, questions, answers, etc. leading up to that point. Maybe some of the hunters are too young to remember what led up to this, but I remember very well, they were welcomed.
By Kokanee on 11-02-09
Mitch no offense but ignorance is bliss and I mean that in a good way. We surround ourselves with like minded individuals, whether it is for our favorite sports teams,political forums,or for this instance pro/con wolf advocates. For lack of personal knowledge I will assume that you are pro wolf and relatively naive about most hunters. I remember the release of wolves as well and it was not spoken highly of in most all the areas I frequented in the west. Many a threat was and has been levied at the wolf by low and high caste individuals. The P.C. of the whole deal was support this so we look good and (wink,wink) we will take care of it later. The Rocky Mountain gray wolf recovery plan was written and instituted by the federal government using their guidelines for states to follow, the due process would have been voted into being rather than this is what we are doing. That is why Wyoming is not part of this years hunt they did not want the wolf and chose to tell the federal govt. No so they were excluded from the ruling. Rare is the person that can walk both sides of the fence and come away without tearing his britches.
By Kokanee on 11-03-09
Here is a question for ya, if the fence riders that sat mum through the whole process of reintroduction could see into the future and based on this kind of harassment would they have allowed the wolves to come back into this type of scenario. Think about that the monies spent on this, land for wildlife corridors could have been bought and all sorts of projects to further enhance what we have.
The views expressed in the comments section do not reflect those of the Beacon.