If it weren’t going to be so salty and arduous to acquire, I’d make a cup of tea from ######### tears.  ROFLMAO!!

Everyone is sick and tired of this bill, Deem and pass, or rather the Slaughter rule, is an obvious sign that our system of government is almost irretrievably broken. No matter how hard they work to grease the palms of lobbyists, the health care bill has such little backing that they’re going to resort to shallow trickery. I understand that it’s important, but perhaps this is something that should go to referendum.  Yes, health care needs reform, but it’s demonstrated again and again that if free competition is allowed to work.

What would I do if I am a company that this bill forces to provide healthcare or a higher level of healthcare?  I make a business decision.  I let go enough employees to cover my increased costs. What if I am an individual who pays their own healthcare now but by retiring I can lower my earnings and put more of my healthcare costs on the subsidy?  I slow up my earnings, retire, whatever, and let the working public pay for mine. What if I am a twenty-something, not inclined to work, don’t pay for my healthcare when this goes into effect? I still don’t work. I let them fine me since I have no money. (You do know it’s the IRS that will be enforcing this!) I let the working public pay for me. What if I’m in this country illegally? How are they going to fine me when they don’t even know I’m here?  The point is that the productive working people of this country just got shafted on the tax and spend side of this bill for people who will use the system. The needed provisions such as coverage for preexisting conditions should have been addressed but not through a monstrosity like this. The baby boomers will be eating up their assets. Their kids will be left with a lot less of the parents money when they die. The funny part is that I will live out the rest of my life under this bill and the young people who voted for this current administration will be left to pay the tab. To all of you: Keep and eye on your government.  You get the one you tolerate.

All of this cheating, lying, back room deals, coercion and outright buying and selling of votes for only one thing: the supposed legacy of one arrogant, egotistical individual who has the urge to dictate to the American people. What he has done, besides destroying the Democratic party, is create a fiscal nightmare that will now take years and billions of dollars to undue, if indeed it can all be undone. I grieve for our country.

Montucky-I too grieve for the country. The hippocracy of this bill: Congressman, and probably other government employees won’t be paying. If this monstrosity is such a good idea EVERYONE should be on the same health care payment system. Congress, government, union, non-union, self-payers! Why is anyone exempt? Hippocrates the lot of them. Obama says prevention is the key to cost control…as he puffs on his cigarettes behind the Whitehouse. What a fallacy!

Mooseberry, I couldn’t agree more with you. Say hello to hyperinflation. Say goodbye to the mom’s and pop’s, I will NEVER vote democratic again. It will be scary to see unemployment rise to 30, 40%. Better hurry up and take that civil service exam. Goverment jobs!!

Next step - make certain those that voted for it have to use it as thier own coverage.  As far as government jobs growing - as far as I’m concerned, all those who are on Medicaid/Food Stamps etc are working for the government. Except they are not working.  I sure hope they don’t pass some immigration policy now making those millions citizens so they can milk our system even more.

History will clearly show that Montana Sen. Max Baucus was a key player in the ruin of the US economy and the quality of our healthcare. He (and Tester) bring shame to this state. Unlike our Founders who fought and spilled their blood so that men could live FREE from an oppressive state, these two Senators spit on their graves and their sacrifices by chaining us to the very tyranny which they fought to rid us of.

I’m afraid you will see ALOT more people on medicaid and food stamps. The State will have to cover all the people who will be unemployed, and “we the people” will have to pick up this tab. Taxes will spiral out of control, or the State coffers will be bled dry.

I think our biggest disagreements come down to our own personal perception of who cannot afford health care.  Most of you assume that the majority of people that can’t afford it must be slack losers who choose not to work.  Very cynical.

I assume that the majority going without coverage work just as hard (if not harder) than the rest of us and simply aren’t talented or educated enough to make enough money to afford it.  I also know there are a lot of people that have illnesses that are no fault of their own and are simply not healthy enough to work.  I feel that we have a social responsibility to help our fellow man if they are NOT ABLE to help themselves.  Somebody has to push a mop at McDonalds.  If McDonalds doesn’t cover that employee and they don’t pay well enough for that employee to afford health care on their own; than that is a failure of our society.  In Pennsylvania alone, 7,577 employees of Wal-Mart are on Medicaid at a cost of $15 million a year.  So is the problem with people or is an ethical issue of our mega-corperations?  Do you shop at Wal-Mart?  If you do, you are supporting a company that does everything in their power to avoid paying benefits at the cost of the American Tax Payer. Thats how they keep their prices so low. 

There are always going to be people that leach off the system but thats not the whole issue.  Maybe we need to do a better job patrolling for those who cheat the system instead of penalizing everyone because of a few bad apples.

Native: This bill creates a greater incentive for people to not be productive. I recognize the need to assist people who truly need the assistance due to preexisting medical issues and there are people are “down on their luck” who need temporary assistance. But the built-in incentives in this bill to have others pay your tab for years to come or possibly the rest of your life is an insult. This bill will damage companies who employ people. Have you looked at what the bill has done to companies of 50 employees or more? Get a grip. This undermines the fabric of our economy…small business.  This is going to mean lots more people out of jobs all so we can insure people who just don’t want to buck it up and be productive. I know far too many people who would rather have a new car, a house, a new tatoo or whatever than pay for their healthcare. The incentives in the bill are all ###-backwards and a slap in the face of the forward-planning, hardworking people of this country!

@Native - I agree that we should help those unable to afford health care.  But if your able to work but choose not to then why should the rest of us foot the bill?  If this was really so important to the Oboma and his congressional cronies then they would have left out all the extra crap and simply written a bill to help those who can’t afford insurance.  But instead they’re now going to take away things like my FSA and to make me pay more for everything else because the tax on manufacturers and such.  It’s out of control socialism.

With this infiltration of communists we should summon up the ghost of Joe McCarthy to rid our land of this evil. I didn’t know their were all of these communists in our midsts until I started reading these posts. In fact since I’ve since learned that I too am a communist. Would an exorcism help rid me of this?

They have some socialistic ideas yes, not communist . They are two totally different political philosophies We currently have many other socialist programs in our country. Social Security , Medicare, Public Schools and Colleges, fire and police protection, public health, mass transit(Amtrack), the list goes on. If you ever left the U.S. you would most likely visit a Socialistic country, Canada,all of Europe, Japan New Zealand Australia. In fact all of our allies are considered to be socialistic. We can have socialistic ideals and still remain a Republic with a representative democracy , the two can exist together. And don’t say that if you go socialistic it is just one step to communism,  history has shown that communism occurs in countries that are either olagarthies or dictatorships, and we are niether. I don’t believe there has ever been a socialistic country that has turned communistic.
  And just for the record I am a capatalist, I just don’t believe in laissez-faire capitalism. Many things the private sector does better than the government can, but when regulations are dropped bad things happen and then the government needs to fix them, such is the case with our healthcare system.

Liberals sure are confident this is going to work.  Our company will be taxed an additional $50K per year on this bill.  That is going to lay people off.  ONce again, it is a nice gestor to help everyone, but we can’t afford it.  Just open your check books, open your wallets, this is socialism. Don’t kid yourself.

We are mixed economy. Every leading industrialized nation in the world is a mixed economy.

When people make these things out to be black and white (either its socialism or capitalism) they are revealing how very little they really know about how modern economies and competitive systems work today.

The problem with civil discourse is that too many intellectually lazy people are getting their information via TV cartoon characters on FOX news. It’s good for the pocketbooks of folks like Glenn Beck but disaster to running a sensible and competitive modern society and economy.

I think George W Bush’s speechwriter has been the most cogent and honest about what the GOP has become:

“Conservatives and Republicans today suffered their most crushing legislative defeat since the 1960s.

It’s hard to exaggerate the magnitude of the disaster. Conservatives may cheer themselves that they’ll compensate for today’s expected vote with a big win in the November 2010 elections. [...]

No illusions please: This bill will not be repealed. Even if Republicans scored a 1994 style landslide in November, how many votes could we muster to re-open the “doughnut hole” and charge seniors more for prescription drugs? How many votes to re-allow insurers to rescind policies when they discover a pre-existing condition? How many votes to banish 25 year olds from their parents’ insurance coverage? And even if the votes were there – would President Obama sign such a repeal?

We followed the most radical voices in the party and the movement, and they led us to abject and irreversible defeat. [...]

So today’s defeat for free-market economics and Republican values is a huge win for the conservative entertainment industry. Their listeners and viewers will now be even more enraged, even more frustrated, even more disappointed in everybody except the responsibility-free talkers on television and radio. For them, it’s mission accomplished. For the cause they purport to represent, it’s Waterloo all right: ours.”

Emerson, it may even end up worse for the GOP than you think. If the republicans try to change this one bit in the senate version by adding amendments, the Democrats will add a public option. If it has to be sent back to the house to reconcile the bill it will go back with a public option, and it will pass both the house and senate. If the right wing was smart(which they haven’t proven to be yet) they would quit while there behind, otherwise they will really regret what they did. I personally hope they do this as I’ve always believed we need a public option.

Americans love to jump on the bandwagon of the victors.  For those of you who think polls are the end all/be all for supporting your arguments, I suggest you not look at any in the upcoming weeks.  See USAToday 49-40 for HCR, CNN 52-43 for HCR released yesterday and today.

Tea, anyone?

Wow Hammer.  Where did you pull that out of?  The bill actually creates tax credits—up to 35 percent the cost of premiums—to small businesses to make it easier to cover employees this year.  Your business won’t be forced to cover anyone until 2014.  If your premiums go up, thats on the Private insurance company and they would have increased them either way.

Don’t believe the bull they have been feeding you. This bill will increase the costs. When has government ever been correct on cost estimates…and this…10 years out. Give me a brake. The scam is that the costs for the average voter won’t be seen until after the 2012 election. Businesses will be purging employees to compensate for the increase in healthcare costs. This bill is a fundamental slap to the system that made the country great. I state all this knowing that I will benefit from this bill. Reviewing the key points in the bill my healthcare costs will likely decrease. Some of you will be paying my healthcare. But I still believe the bill is the wrong direction for this country.

mooseberryin,  I spent 8 years under Bush, Cheney and company being disappointed in what the government feeds me. I’ve spent the lat 14 months wondering if anything really did change. I’ve spent the last 3 days knowing that we finally have a leader I once again can believe in. I have not felt this way in a long time, but all I can say is ITS A GREAT DAY TO BE AN AMERICAN!!!!

@inthemiddle - If only we all could be as influenced by drugs as you must be to believe this bus load of BS the government is dumping on you.  If you were truly an AMERICAN you’d be ashamed right now not proud.

inthemiddle..You are naive to think anything has changed with the government. Government doesn’t do a very good job of much of anything. But they screw us well every time. They shafted all of us again!

Stock market reaction to passage of health care bill: Dow up 102.94. No particular worry there.

Dear Liberal Native, if it were 2014, our company would be taxed $50k.  We provide a very good plan with employer contributions.  I know you have a tough time absorbing common sense, but it will cost us $50k in taxes.  If you really believe there are tax benefits, Warm Springs is not too far away.  I am glad you can be content on supporting a radical liberal

I think liberal Native has a hard time understanding what taxes are.  Common sense tells you that we are going to have to pay for it somewhere and small businesses have been the target.  LOOK OUT

Stupak was given a sweetheart deal 2 days before the House vote to win his votes to pass this health care bill - check this out:

http://www.house.gov/apps/list/speech/mi01_stupak/morenews/20100319faagrant.html

JB:  It appears that a lot of House members got bought off (or not) all at once.

http://www.freep.com/article/20100323/NEWS15/100323057/1008/NEWS06/Did-backroom-deal-sway-Stupak?-He-blasts-claim

“Republicans in Washington complained today of an “apparent backroom deal” worth $726,000 to three airports in U.S. Rep. Bart Stupak’s district, suggesting the funding may have somehow swayed his vote for health care reform legislation.

Problem is, the same round of improvement grants — worth millions of dollars to some airports – went to facilities all over the nation, including those in districts of some of the staunchest opponents to the reform bill.”

It has nothing to do with whether I’m liberal or not.  Maybe I’m wrong.  Just show me whare this info came from.  I haven’t heard anything about taxes on small businesses as a result of this bill.  Just show me and I will totally give you kudo’s for proving me wrong.

The stock market loves it because the mandate to require coverage is a huge boost to the private insurance market.  All these conservatives running around claiming this is will deconstruct free enterprise of the insurance market and the truth is it favors them.  They will get to sign up young healthy people who make a lot of money but choose to not pay for coverage because they are never sick.  this should also bring down premiums for all of us because a throng of healthy people will be forced to join the pool.  Its fun when the truth comes out.

By and By the main problem I have with the tea party movement is how they determine who is American enough for them. They have coopted God, The flag, the constitution, and now who they consider to be great Americans. They can’t accept that our president was born in Hawaii, and is as American as any one of them are. You are all so ready to call us communists, nazis and facists yet it is you who want to take away many of our God given rights. Freedom of thought,religion, and speech are granted to us in the bill of rights, I know you have read it because the tea party crowd always recites it. Maybe instead of just reading it and quoting it you should actually try and understand it. I have never heard or read where a progressive has told another American to leave this country because they disagree on something, but the right wing does it all the time. Get over yourselves, you may think you are better Americans than we are but you are not. Throughout history many of the most fervant flag wavers have been the first to turn and run when there countries are attacked, while some of the most passive turn into the true patriots. You and Sean Hannity can keep calling each other great Americans, just leave the rest of us out of it.

inthemiddle: spot on.

The ########## talk about going back to the Constitution as originally issued.  I wonder how the women-folk of that movement would feel about losing their right to vote, to own property, etc.  I wonder how their 18-21 year cadre would feel about losing their right to vote.

It’s ironic, gay men over 21 would have more Constitutional rights than those two demographics combined.  HEH!!

KN
The funny thing about the right wing is how anti Muslim they are, yet they both want to go back hundreds of years into the past so that they can repress other people. Both radical followers of Islam and the tea party born again crowd scare the hell out of me. They are both so sure they are right and everyone else is wrong, that they are not only willing to die for their beliefs, but they want to take everyone else and the whole planet with them. God help us all if the tea partiers ever get in control.

ITM:  The parallels between the Koran and the Bible are astonishing.  The behaviors of the extremist zealots of each religion is astonishing as well.

To monitor the extremism of American christianists try, http://www.talk2action.org/ ,this will chill you to the bone.

I’ll share this ‘Open letter to Conservatives’ from a Conservative.

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/a/m/americandad/2010/03/an-open-letter-to-conservative.php?ref=mp

I doubt that anybody who NEEDS to read it will.  They’ll prefer the comfort of their closely held delusional false reality.

Just as the Dem and Rep parties have people in their tents who don’t all think the same, so too does the tea party movement. But remember TEA stands for Taxed Enough Already. This movement has is about out of control spending, too much taxation and the like. Many tea party people didn’t care for how money was spent by republicans and don’t like how money is being spent by democrats. Supak is a pro-life democrat. So with your logic all democrats are pro-life. Of course this isn’t true just as the assertions you make regarding tea party participants isn’t true. I’m not a member of the tea party but I do agree that I do not like the levels of spending that have occurred. I will be attending the next public meeting. You see, that’s what is happening all across the country because neither the reps or the dems are listening to the people who send them there. Final thought: If this healthcare is going to be so *&(*^ good, why isn’t congress going to be on the same program? None of them are affected by what was done.  None of them.

I actually think the bill should have simply been to make it illegal for any company to provide healthcare benefits with regulatory provisions for preexisting conditions, etc. with some cost controls. Then consumers could simply make up their minds which insurance company they would sign up for because the couldn’t be turned away. Then mandate that insurance companies to shift (allocate) high cost policies across a wider base of insurance companies (reinsurance) so it wouldn’t kill any one company because they were carrying too many of the high payout coverages. The premimums could then be adjusted to meet the demand. Eliminate non-essential office visits, etc. to minimize abuse on the patient side. Then make provisions to cover those who simply are falling through the cracks. The premiums could be done on a sliding fee scale basis. Instead we have a bill that places an increased burden on small companies that will impact employment and an increased burden on each state with these unfunded mandates.

Great…more leftist hyperbole…just what we need.

So you people actually hold yourselves to the same standard, then?

Yeah, right…like I believe that.  “Delusional” is telling anyone that doesn’t agree with you to leave the country.

“Delusional” is calling anybody who doesn’t agree with Obama’s policies a racist.

And then, we have the models of your so-called “standard”:, guys like Gerry Studs (rapist), Barney Frank (homosexual),  Ted Kennedy (a drunk and a philanderer, among other things), Chris Dodd (another drunken philanderer), Edwards and Clinton (guys who like to cheat on their spouses), etc.

Oh yes, such upstanding, noble individuals!!

Now who is delusional??

Hey KN, I counter your link with this one:

http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/07/an_open_letter_to_liberals.html

This is from a former liberal to both sides.  If you truly have an open mind, give it a read.

David Vitter, John Ensign, Richard Pombo, Tom DeLay, Larry Craig, Duke Cunningham, James Traficant, Mark Sanford, Howard Kallogian, Jack Abramoff and the Club for Growth members (like Conrad Burns) just off the top of my head.

During the illegal war in Iraq, how many jingoistic “patriots” told people to go back to Europe in the delusional belief that the war in Iraq was based on truthful information? hmmmm?

I’m sure we both can come up with enough links to delineate detractors, filling this column with useless tripe…proving, in the end, that neither side can be trusted.

Like it or not, this bill is law.  I only hope we have something of an economy left in the coming years to pay for this monster.

JB: While Robyn’s piece is delighfully idealistic, as long as there are ill/mis/mal-informed folks like hammer and mooseberry, in particular, there will be people like me afflicting their comfort and their tunnel-visioned world-view.

Her closing quote from Rumi sounds like a bar-room call-out to the parking lot for a “gentlemanly” solution.

Thanks for sharing.  Her’s is a delightful proffer.

JB:  Yes.  It is law.  The rightwing extremists haven’t even started their 5 phases of grief.  As Americans, we will prevail, nonetheless.

Thanks for reading it, KN - happy to see you appreciated it.

Here are some quotes from some of the 34 Democrats who voted AGAINST the bill:

“I am saddened that the year-long debate on health reform has resulted in legislation that is too expensive, contains too many special deals, does not contain health care costs and will result in increases in health insurance premiums and therefore I will vote against the legislation.” — Congressman Jim Matheson D- Utah

“I voted no today because I was elected to listen to my constituents…No one should ever be elected to be a blind loyalist to a political party” — Congressman Walt Minnick D- Idaho

“The politically easy vote would have been to vote with my party.  But I was not sent to Congress to take the easy way out or to vote the way they want me to vote in Washington.” — Congressman Jason Altmire D- Pa.

“The health care package… doesn’t do enough to keep health care costs in check.  Small business owners… tell me this new proposal will hurt them and their employees across the board.  I’ve listened to my constituents and have heard their concerns clearly.” — Congressman Michael Arcuri D- N.Y.

“I am strongly in favor of reforming the health care system, but I don’t think this bill is going to do it, and therefore I can’t support it.  It puts too much of the burden of paying for it on working folks who are already being over charged, and that’s not fair.” — Congressman John Barrow D- Ga.

“The Senate health care reform bill does not adequately address the issue of federal funds being used to pay for abortions.  Despite the recently announced Executive Order addressing this issue… as a pro-life Member of Congress, I believe that abortion is fundamentally wrong and taxpayer money should not be allowed to support it.” — Congressman Marion Berry D- Ark.

“After reading and carefully reviewing the legislation, I oppose its passage.  I am concerned about the unsavory deal making that occurred in the United States Senate… while the measure that passed the House removes several of the special benefits, others remain and were not removed by the legislation.  I simply cannot countenance this kind of deal making which goes well beyond the bounds of normal legislative negotiations…  The bill also fails to achieve the tort reform which is necessary to control health care costs.” — Congressman Rick Boucher D- Va.

“I voted against the health care reform bill because our country cannot afford its massive costs… for months my constituents have expressed their strong opposition to this bill and I cannot ignore the will of the people I represent.” — Congressman Bobby Bright D- Ala.

“I have reviewed the bill and I remain deeply concerned about the legislation’s large price tag and the absence of sufficiently strong language to prohibit federal funding of abortion.” — Congressman Travis Childers D- Miss.

And a few more…

“Many parts of this bill cause me great concern, like telling people they must buy health insurance or be fined, cutting Medicare by more than a half trillion dollars, and increasing taxes… I am also concerned how these new mandates will impact our small businesses as we recover from this economic recession and they attempt to put people back to work.” — Congressman Mike Ross D- Ark.

“I voted “No” on the House health care reform bill and I will be a “No” on the Senate health care reform bill.  At a time of massive federal deficits, I believe these bills could make those deficits worse.” — Congressman Chet Edwards D- Texas

“Health care reform is needed, but the bill before us is too expensive, does not adequately address rising medical costs and skyrocketing insurance premiums, and tries to do too much too soon.  We simply cannot afford to create a new federal bureaucracy that costs nearly $1 trillion when our national debt is $12 trillion and there’s no plan in place to address it.  I will not vote for it.” — Congressman Mike McIntyre D- N.C.

“Today in the House of Representatives, I voted against the Senate health care bill and the reconciliation package.  I opposed the bill for many of the same reasons that I voted against the House version of health care reform last fall: the plan costs too much and doesn’t do enough to lower health care costs… I cannot support a plan that raises taxes for the majority of Americans who currently have health insurance, while doing little to lower their premiums or reduce their out-of-pocket health care costs” — Congressman Charlie Melancon D- La.

@inthemiddle and @KN -  Last time I checked the Original Constitution doesn’t deny women the right to vote.  Are your reading a different version?  The 19th Amendment gave them the right to Vote but It was actually a rule left up to the states until then.  So please don’t make up crap and accuse me of being a ######### or other such things.  If you were true Americans then you’d see how criminal Obama and most of our current politicians are.

By and By,
In the words of Ronald Reagan “there you go again”
To start with I never used the term ######### or stated that the Constitution did not allow women or minorities the right to vote. I only said that people in the tea party movement want to use the constitution to repress people. I know we will disagree on this point but I will state it anyway. I believe that the constitution is a living document that can be interpreted differently from generation to generation based upon the morals and ethics of that time frame. I also believe that some of our founding fathers not only understood this but expected it to be this way so that the origional document would remain intact. First by allowing amendments and secondly by creating a Supreme Court they insured that it could be interpreted differently by each generation. They also made the process of changing it difficult so that any change would not be rash and would withstand the test of time. Many attempts to add amendments have failed, most recently the Equal Rights Amendment which occured almost 30 years ago. Most changes are done by the courts, but even then it is extremely rare for the Supreme Court to allow any radical change. As I have said before, this country was blessed by providence that we had such intellegent forward thinking men at that time to formulate what is the single greatest governmental document ever written.

commonsense - isn’t it nice to see a party that doesn’t simply vote party lines on everything?  Look back on every major piece of contraversial legislation in the past 20 years and you will see that Democrats ALWAYS have members that vote against the party and Republicans ALWAYS vote 100% party lines.

Native, Your ignorance is showing. Are too lazy to pay attention or just to narrow-minded to accept facts?

truthorcon: so your saying I’m wrong?  Do you know otherwise?

commonsense - you think that cutting & pasting some comments from politicians puts the facts on your side?  You must really trust these democrats.  Would you trust them if they voted in favor of the bill?

You posted 13 quotes, that in sum contain zero facts.  Saying this is too expensive is an opinion, even our top economists can’t make that claim.  Here is an example of a fact: we spend more on the Iraq war each year than we will on the health care expenditures as a result of this bill.  So you’ve always been against us going to war because we can’t afford it right?

Being against this bill because it does not address federal funding of abortions is talking point for anyone that is in need of some conservative votes.  Here is another fact:  The Hyde ammendment already made it law that federal funds cannot be used to pay for an abortion. 

I’ve noticed a real consistancy on these blogs.  Anyone that attacks people for “ignoring the facts” doesn’t actually share or referance any facts.  They share editorials from people with similar views, the recite poll numbers like their infallable and they can’t post a disagreement without an insult.

@ inthemiddle - How does the Tea Party want to repress people with the constitution???  I’m not a Tea Part or any Party member so I could care less what they want or think.  I was replying to both you and KN.  You both made wrong assumptions.  As far as I can tell the Tea Party wants to return to following the constitution not going around it like the criminals currently in office do.

Native and Inthemiddle, tell me you are not that naive to think that the 35% deductions on employee health care premiums you contribute in 2010 will go up to 50% in 2014 is going to make small businesses money?  That is the koolaid you have drank.  Where is the money going to come from.  I ask you, where in the world is all this going to come from. You actually think there are tax benefits here, but in the big picture where is it going to come from on top of providing 30 million people coverage..  Money doesn’t grow on trees, I guess it can be made in DC, but this country will be damaged hard if this bill doesn’t have huge changes.  I understand, the liberals in charge are still trying to find out where it is coming from.  What an irresponsible approach from this party.  They know exactly where it is going to come from.  HIGHER TAXES!.  DON’T BE A FOOL AND BELIEVE THAT THIS HEALTH CARE BILL IS GOING TO HELP AMERICA.  SMALL BUSINESSES WILL PAY THE PRICE… WE KNOW THAT

So Native,, why don’t you go give the finger to your own people that are creating this mess.  THIS IS NOTHING BUT IRRESPONSIBLE!

Hammer - The money is coming from individuals making over $200,000 or couples making over $250,000.

If you and your spouse make $300,000 after deductions, you will have to pay an extra $450 in medicare taxes.

But if your Glenn Beck, making $22,000,000 a year, you will be paying $198,000 extra.

truthorcon - You can insult me all you want, it doesn’t bother me.  It was just an observation.  So are you going to tell me why you disagreed so adamently with my arguement?  Or are you just reflecting how your favorite talk show host has told you to think?

Native, my comment back to you was regarding your assertion that all republicans vote the same on all major bills in the last 20 years. That is just not true and therefore shows ignorance of the facts. I posted some of the NO VOTE democrats to illustrate there are a few out there who refused to hold their nose and vote for a bill the majority of their constituents did not support. We do not send people to Washington to ignore us. In response to your Iraq war comment: Honestly, I have been on the fence on it since the beginning. My first comment when they decided to go was that they better find WMD or it will be a big blunder. I was unhappy that once we were in the middle of it it was not executed effectively and it has cost far too much in many ways. But that doesn’t justify another scam on the American public like this one. I believe there are better and less costly ways to make healthcare work. I have never worked at the local level to elect or unelect a particular candidate. I have never contribued to a political candidate. The TARP mess, the stimulus spending and this healthcare bill have motivated me to get involved.  I am attending a meeting tonight of organizers who intend to impact the mess created in the last twelve years.(Yes, I mean Clinton, Bush and Obama) You see its not just a one party mess. The government is a mess and unless we take it back it will remain a mess.

commonsense - I appreciate your comments.  I wasn’t saying every vote for every bill, I was referring to the recent major spending bills (scroll down to “One-Way Street” graph):

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/3/1/131847/8322

My point in reference to war is about consistancy.  Every single republican and some dems said “no” and this and it was mostly based on the cost.  So how many of those politicians said yes to the war but no to the health bill?  If its simply all about the money as opposed to being all about the people than at least stay consistant.

I admire you for getting involved.  I would only urge that you consider the causes of the problems before you attack the problems associated with the solutions.  What I mean is; TARP, Stimulous & the Health Bill were all efforts to fix the countries most urgent and massive problems.  But don’t overlook what created the problems, thats what we should be concerened with.  Thats what is driving me crazy about a lot of the protests.  Why aren’t we seeing more protests against the greed of Wall Street?  Who is at fault for our Country having the highest cost for health care in the world?  What allowed for the biggest real estate bubble in history?  Why aren’t we mad at the insurance compaines for dropping people AFTER they get sick.  Its easy to attack the effect but few take the time to investigate the cause.

Native, gross sales for a small business of $200,000 doesn’t make them rich.  You depend on the govt too much.  You have completely drawn a clear picture of you by fingering teaparty protesters.  It is very tough to sit here and have any respect for the lack of common sense you deliver.

Ha ha.  Is he still around?  I thought he promised to leave the country if reform passed.

Self-employed income and salaried income are two different things and are taxed differently.  Why can’t you get that difference through your head?

Yes, KN is right.  And yes, we have said this a half dozen times to you.  Your talking revenue.  Revenue isn’t taxed.  Profit is taxed.  And your even off on this one twice.  Business’s are not to be taxed under this bill so this doesn’t even apply.  This tax is on personal income, not corporate.  Didn’t you say you run a small business?  If you don’t know this basic accounting stuff, how can you manage a business’s finances?

Native:  Just another classic example of Rush lying.  Whatever it takes for him to have something to say that he can’t back up with proof or action.

If you really think it’s only $200k or more, you are kidding yourself.  Plus the taxes on small businesses will make the small business owner stop the benefits.  Why would a business owner contributing to a caddy health care plan with a private company when he is going to get taxed on it.  You really think these people won’t get taxed?  You guys need to go get another dose at the local marijuana store and have another one.

They don’t know how they are going to pay for it.  FACE THE FACT.  No successful business owner is going to believe that they are going to make money from the govt benefitting their employees with health coverage. Tax benefits.  Are you kidding me.  When was the last time that the govt didn’t know how a bill was going to be paid without raising taxes.  It is common sense, which is something that the liberals like KN and Native don’t use much.  They would rather have proof with sources than reality.

hammer: I’ve told you before and I’ll tell you again.  You’re entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts.  That is why I prefer proof with sources because that IS reality.  Your unsupported talking points are just that, talk.

That is the latest liberal talk.  You’re entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts.  WOW KN way to follow the herd of sheep in the liberal party.

reminds me of the muppet show.

http://www.ndu.edu/inss/Books/Books_1998/Military Geography March 98/milgeoch14.html

James R. Schlesinger-not exactly a paragon of liberalism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_R._Schlesinger

Two minutes with John Boehner.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpOUctySD68

Native, TARP-The real estate financial bubble has its roots way back in the Clinton administration and throughout the Bush administration. I was not particularly a George Bush fan, neither of Bush 1 or 2. But, let’s suppose for a moment, a two years before the stuff hit the fan, that Bush came out and said…Hey everybody we have an enormous problem brewing here! Remember, things were going gangbuster! So who was going to raise their hand and cause the stuff to hit the fan? Right or wrong it would have been political suicide. Then, our government…under both Bush and Obama decide to give the banks the money instead of taking direct action on the “troubled assets”. A government switcheroo! The stimulus bill: toss a bunch of money at the problem and unemployment won’t go into double digits! (Obama). Wrong. And we all knew it was wrong when they passed it. Government got it wrong again!  And now we are supposed to put faith in this same government with healthcare and all of the money it is going to cost. C’mon man.  Wake up!

They don’t call you common sense for no reason.  Nice work

The birther teaparty people are making threats of violence and death against Democratic congressmen who voted for the healthcare bill. They sabotaged a gas line of the brother of one congressman thinking it was his house. They are no better than the 9/11 terrorists, and anyone who defends them is against liberty. They are all a bunch of nuts. They need to be treated the same as other terrorists, remember Timothy Mcviegh. The worst part is the GOP leadership is defending their actions.

This talk is coming from the Democratic strategy.  It’s all politics anymore.  Deaths, recessions, wars they’ve all become political agenda.  This country needs to go back to basics.

hammer - this ones for you. I couldn’t resist.

http://www.adn.com/2010/03/24/1197471/palins-firearms-themed-rhetoric.html

Could the GOP at least renounce the violence?

Native, thanks for being real now and admitting you are a liberal.  Yes, the GOP has renounced the violence.  You obviously get your slanted news from liberals sources.  I have heard with my very own ears the GOP talking against the violence.  YOu keep on drinking the koolaid mr Marc

truthorcon when ever have you seen liberals take on responsibility of their own actions.  They blame the GOP when about 34 Dems voted against this country breaker.  No it’s not that they have the wrong idea on what needs to happen, AMericans don’t have enough intelligence to handle it.  Let Nancy Pelosi take us into wonderland of socialism

This fall the Democrats in congress will loose some seats. Its an off year election always happens to the governing party. Will it be as bad as 1994 who knows. What I do know is most of the loses will be from the 34 that did not support the president. A few of these are safe because they voted against this bill because it did not have a public option. The rest voted against it to try and save their own seats. It won’t work, for every independent that votes for them over this a progressive will leave the ballot blank. A few congressmen and women voted in favor of this knowing it doomed their chances for reelection. They stood on principle, something very few in public office today have, in either party. I respect them for that.

Mao is a hero of one of our DOJs.  This country has lost its principles.

In the middle, you couldn’t be more off the mark.  You must a a medical marijuana store next to you too

Breaking news, Republican Cantor’s office shot at with real bullets.  Now inthemiddle, Natives, what do you say now.  It must have been a teaparty member’s bullet ricocheting.

The shooting is coming from the Republican strategy.

...and I condem it.

Dang violent hippies.  I think more is going to come from this story.  Cantor says he has been threatened before because he is Jewish.  He used the incident to blame Democratic leaders for the violence.  Something stinks.  Either way, the violence has got to stop.

Yah, there you go, not taking any responsibility for the party’sown action.  Just like the text book said on liberals

You guys, bullets are flying.  You have got to be kidding.  How come it is so predictable that you guys would blame the GOP for this.

Having tax evaders, social marxists with our president, you guys sure do drink the koolaid from your party.  You guys still think Jimmy Carter was a great president just because he has a D by his name.  No common sense just loyalty to a bunch of crooks in DC.

Just a little sauce for the Hamm:

By hammer on 03-25-10

This talk is coming from the Democratic strategy.  It’s all politics anymore.  Deaths, recessions, wars they’ve all become political agenda.  This country needs to go back to basics

Who blamed the GOP for anything?  Man, everything you say is so friggin dramatic and exaggerated.

It’s the bluster of opinionated bullies crying their futile tears of rage in the waning throes of their tantrum.

Just leave them thrashing about in the candy aisle and finish your grocery shopping.

Let’s not lose sight of what is being debated here. The Obamacare bill is the greatest affront to the freedom of CHOICE in man’s health care decisions. It takes from the freedom of man to act in his own interest and (unethically) transfers that freedom to the state.

Roark - I think I’ve asked you this before and recieved no answer.  What choice have you now lost?

After talking to an expert who looks for insurance solutions for companies, I asked him why rates are going up so much this year. The answer he gave me was not what I expected it to be.He said most of the increase has come about because of new treatment options for cancer patients. The average cancer treatment cost now is almost 3 million dollars. This has over doubled in the last three years. While the costs have doubled there has of yet been no shown increase rate in either survival time or cure rate. In the mean time because of these huge payouts, insurance companies have substantially raised their rates, which in turn has forced millions of Americans to either drop their own coverage or have lost it through their employers. How many lower and middle income people have since died because they can no longer afford insurance. In our country we do not ration medical coverage to people with health insurance, we only ration it to those that cannot afford it. Would one of you tea party right wing zealots please exlpain the morality of this to me.

This is hilarious.  David Frum, a leader of the conservative movement and ex-Bush Speechwriter was just fired from his own conservative think tank for writing this:

http://www.frumforum.com/waterloo

hammer: apparently Cantor lied, again.

http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/house-republicans/richmond-police-detail-shooting-of-cantors-office/

From the statement from the Richmond police.; “A preliminary investigation shows that a bullet was fired into the air and struck the window in a downward direction, landing on the floor about a foot from the window.”  Did you catch that?  Downward direction.  That means some yahoo fired a bullet into the air, gravity did its job, and on the way down the bullet broke the window, landing harmlessly just inside the window.

Once again. goopers trying to play the victim card to diminish the true problem with the American terrorists assaulting Democratic lawmakers, their families, homes and office spaces.

Turn out the lights the parties over, house passes reconciliation bill 220-207. Obama needs to sign it again then its law baby. As Biden said this is a “big f@#$in deal”. To bad they didn’t have enough intestinal fortitude to put the public option in. Oh well we"ll get it next year. Has Bohners head exploaded yet. Gotta be a real concern to the insurance lobby, all that money to the gNop and it still passes. All of the polls today show public support is growing, Most are around 50% for it. And this is what the republicants are going to run on in the fall. LOSERS They lost the elections, they lost this, now they lost what dignity they had left.

A Canadian perspective on the new health care legislation:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health/is-obamas-law-a-health-care-revolution-meh/article1511586/

Step right up to the Wacky Washington Health Care Emporium:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAyqWQzACT4&feature=player_embedded

JB:  Good to see that you agree that the recently enacted HCR isn’t good enough and that it needs to be expanded much further.  Thanks for getting on board.

The “A Canadian perspective on the new health care legislation.” clip must make some on the right wonder just what all the hoolpa was about.

This one is rather novel, too:  “Sweatin’ with the Socialists” :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izpU4YJ0ZAA#

Then there’s the many things you won’t be able to do under HCR:

http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article.aspx?id=528337

I particularly thought this point was interesting:

11. If you are a physician and you don’t want the government looking over your shoulder? Tough. The Secretary of Health and Human Services is authorized to use your claims data to issue you reports that measure the resources you use, provide information on the quality of care you provide, and compare the resources you use to those used by other physicians. Of course, this will all be just for informational purposes. It’s not like the government will ever use it to intervene in your practice and patients’ care. Of course not. (Section 3003 (i))

Oops, this was the article I meant to reference - sorry about that:

http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article.aspx?id=528137

So is this what HCR is supposed to look like?  Why doesn’t Obama talk about how well the Massachusetts model is working?

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/opinion/op_ed/view.bg?articleid=1237112

Poor JB:  I hope he has health insurance that covers hyper-ventilating histrionics.  Good thing that’s not considered a pre-existing condiation.

After the way the tea crazies have acted this week many main stream republicans and independents are rethinking their association with them. What is left of moderate republicans in congress now realize that they have been led down a bad road by these zealots. Hopefully some of these people will now start working with the Democrats and get to the job of fixing our economy. Unfortunately many of the moderate republicans have decided to retire as even their views aren’t accepted by the right wingnuts. The far right has no tolerance for any views that are different than their own. I just wonder how long the religious fundamentalists and the nascar crowd can hold their coalalition together. I mean outside of hating Democrats what else do these two groups have in common.

You want a one party system just like the soviets ,eh truthorcon.You people are nuts. Anyone that thinks they have all the answers is a fool. I don’t agree with a lot of liberal Democrats on issues such as gun control and abortion, but thats the difference between Democrats and republicants, we have the ability to think for ourselves. That is why liberal talk radio has never been very succesful. We don’t nee a Beck, Hannity or Linbaugh to tell us what to think about on a day by day basis. We gather our information from many different sources, liberal,  mainstream and conservative and formulate our own points of view. As Will Rodgers once said ” I belong to no organized political party, I’m a Democrat” You always claim to be great Americans, but you want to destroy the system that made this country great.

Our company has 3 employees with kids that will be graduating college in the next 5 years.  All of them have multiple children.  Our insurance policy includes a family plan that covers kids over 18 as long as their in school and under 23.  With our family plan, the cost is the same whether you have 2 kids or 10 kids.  Our employees have been preparing to pay for their health insurance when they graduate because they realize the unlikelyhood of them finding a job that will cover them.  Now, they will be able to get their kids covered at no cost to them and no cost to us until they are 26.  Go America!

It will be interesting to watch health bill opponants also find out they are now better off and see how they react.  I anticipate it will be much like anti-stimulous bill repbulicans showing up at stimulous-funded ribbon cuttings.

Rehberg will be the first in line to take credit. And the worse part is many of those that gain from this (read family farmers and ranchers) will give him praise and credit it for it.

Yes.  The Rx for healthcare in this country is changing.  It has to and we know that; again it’s that demographics thang.

JB’s point 11. is interesting and a necessary step toward cost containment.

Why would’nt you measure resource use against outcome with others in your peer group?  Insurance companies rely heavily on just that for profits.

However, I found 13. REALLY SCAREY:

13. If you are a physician owner and you want to expand your hospital? Well, you can’t (Section 6001 (i) (1) (B). Unless, it is located in a country where, over the last five years, population growth has been 150%....(Section 6601 (i) (3) ( E)).

OH NO !  Different countries ! ?? ....Like Kenya maybe?

.....Just a typo or carefully selected ignorance?

...Oh all right.  To be fair JB’s link other link on the same subject correctly states it as ‘county’.

There WILL BE negative unintended consequences in this reform.  The challenge is to identify the negatives and correct them as fast as possible. 

PS Obama is probably deferring to Mitt Romney on the defense of MA healthcare. 

What a liberal (me) doesn’t like about “Obamacare” :
  (or… Why should the conservatives have all the fun…?)

1.  No public option.

2.  Takes to long to be phased in.

3.  Backroom deals.

4.  mandatory coverage (but I understand why).

...any more fellow lib’s (and self-thinkers) ?

truthorcon, the main reason conservative radio does so well is because the lower the IQ a person has the easier it is to get them to follow your point of view. Bunch of freakin mindless sheep all following the Jadas goat.
Vud, what I don’t like about the healthcare bill is that even though it makes it so a person can’t be dropped for an illness it doesn’t put a cap on the amount the premium can be.raised.

Agreed Vud.  I don’t like those things, I am actually for a single-payer system.  So, I guess this bill wasn’t “socialist” enough for me.  Ha ha.  I don’t like that the Dems took time to write in 200 republican requests when it didn’t earn a single vote.  Not that those requests were bad things but this is a dangerous precedent to set.

inthemiddle - I think that is a little harsh but I agree it is troublesome that so many people can stand to listen to such a one-sided point of view.  It does make you question their ability to sort through fact & fiction.

The reason liberal radio doesn’t work is because a 1 sided point of view is contradictory of the very values of a liberal.  I have many opinions that are more consistant with conservatives so I get conflicted listening to liberal talk.  Listening to either side makes me furious and anger is not healthy so I avoid it altogether.

Native it may be a little harsh, but most of the people I know that listen to conservative radio would believe anything these people told them. They don’t have the ability to think for themselves. They here one or ten of these hucksters tell them something and its the gospel truth after that. 42% of republicans still believe Obama was not born in the U.S.. The percentage that listen to conservative radio that believe this is over 70%. They here something and even when given concrete proof that refutes it they still go with the lie. Stupid is as stupid does.

...and so who is the MOST liberal of the conservative commentors in this thread?  hahha…just kidding !

Hey, leave my late night “histrionics” out of it, KN

Vud, I doubt that Obama is consulting with Romney - check this out:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5itWNTMAINGS2JOejHVpbLGy3Yg8AD9EMF53G0

Don’t want to be caught getting advice from GOP’ers, don’t ya know…

I caught Romneys interview with Chris Wallace on Fox News Sunday a couple weeks ago.

I thought he would be in good shape to be the top Republican presidential candidate.  Man, I doubt it after that interview.  Not with the rights’ position lately.  Wallace was pretty tough on him too.  Strangely the full interview vid is hard to find now.

Native, inthemiddle-Stop it with the arrogance.  That is the big problem liberals have thinking that everyone else is dumb.  News Talk folks listen to common sense.  SUre you have to make up your own mind, but if you tune into any liberal talk,(if there is any) they are very slanted.  Sean Hannity maybe abit too much, but you know what, he was right on the nail head with this socialized president.  Common sense will tell you that.  So go back to thinking everyone is dumb but you.  Unemployment is up, health insurance bill is going to hurt this country and you have no common sense because you really think that it’s only the people making over 200K are going to get taxed.  That is very ignorant to think that.  Eye for an eye tooth for a tooth, look into the mirror first before you degrade the most listened to shows in America.

I’m sure we will all be looking forward to the over 16,0000 new IRS agents!

Native, when the Federal government dictates that you required to buy health insurance or that a company is required to pay a tax for it, that most certainly is a usurpation of power.-and that’s just for starters!

Even socialist Senator Max Baucus said this, ” This is also an income shift. It’s a shift, it’s a leveling to help lower income Americans. Too often in the last couple of three years, the maldistribution of income in America has gone up way too much. The wealthier are getting way, way too wealthy”

Pathetic thing is is that these underhanded politicians and judges always use the “general welfare” statement and interstate commerce clause to give the federal government free reign to do anything. Which is the exact opposite of what was intended by the writers of the US Constitution. Sadly, original intent, context, and basic competence are not required to become elected and start making laws over the citizens of the USA.

Wonder how we’d implement this one.  Those founding fathers are long dead, who will decide original intent etc.?

Nation wide vote?
Concensus of legal scholars?
5 of 9 suprerme court justices?

Glenn Beck maybe?
How?

Vud, the Founders wrote many many notes and explanations on WHAT all of the clauses and statements meant in the entirety of Constitution. In fact, more is written by them ABOUT what the Constitution is supposed to be, strictly in terms as a legal document, than on anything else. Justice Clarence Thomas understands this. This is why I have always said that the US, in order to secure the blessing of liberty, must be able to utilize certain essential thinking skills; reason, objectivity, rational thinking. Consensus cannot, and is not, the standard by which fact and truth are measured, reality is and facts are. That is why the Founders despised democracy’s; they knew that mob rule would trample the rights of the minority. Remember; the USA is a limited constitutional republic, NOT a democracy.

Understood.

So having said that and having the founders notes at hand…who will decide?

Who do you have in mind that would have the integrity to not play politics with a decision as important as this one would be?
Would I agree with that entity?

PS I would’nt mind your best off-the-top-of -your-head source for these founding fathers notes on the constitution.  (Not as filtered by G.Beck tho please.)

Roark -

I think the MooB maybe right.  In our republic those elected tend to interprete things as they will - checked by the courts.
...as the founders intended?

Could it be the system is working just as it was intended?

The Founders did not intend for the US Constitution to be a document of fluid interpretation. It was written very specifically and intentionally as a document which puts certain checks on the power of the government over its citizenry. The Court was only utilized as a protective measure to be sure that members of Congress or the executive did not try to circumvent what was clearly defined in the Constitutional writ.

That was part of England’s political problems and one of the more serious grievences by the fledgling USA addressed in the Declaration of Independence; political expediency in which the law was whatever the Crown deemed it to be.

Roark says the founding fathers did not intend for our Constitution to be “a document of fluid interpretation.”  He also forgets that the British still don’t even have a written Constitution.  Nevertheless, he is certain he knows.  He was there to speak with the founding fathers and jotted down all their opinions.