Comments on: Convoluted Health Care Reform Won’t Work

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By Firebeam on 06-26-09

Ooops, correction:  should read aren’t Enrons and Madoffs…

By woody on 06-27-09

we should also remember that 75% of bankrupcies in America are due to health care bills from PEOPLE WHO HAD INSURANCE.

AND yes your taxes may go up but if you don’t have an health insurance bill every month then you’ll save in the end.  AND NO DEDUCTIBLES!

AND every other insurance should go down also - for example a large part of your auto insurance is health care coverage if you get hurt in a wreck.

IF everyone is covered then you don’t need that extra medical coverage.

IT would be cheaper for business to compete on a global scale if they didn’t have to pay for health care when every other country offers universal health care.

It also would end the basically indentured servitude we work under right now -  if you have children or a pre-existing condition you are stuck at your job because if you leave you may find yourself unable to buy insurance at any price that will cover your condition. SO you are stuck in your job - basically indentured servitude.

By woody on 06-27-09

it seems to me that social security works fine - there’s a gov program that has kept millions out of extreme poverty in their old age over the years

and you are right that gov doesn’t work when the republicans run it -

that’s called a self-fullfilling prophecy

By emerson on 06-27-09

So mooseberry and grannysgadgets - I guess you don’t drive on roads, use electricity, never went to public schools, don’t get social security, don’t fly, ride the train, or enjoy our national defense… All of these things are done by the government as part of our democratic system… To say the government can’t do anything right is simply a silly statement.

By JB on 06-28-09

@mooseberry - /start sarcasm

I guess the government indoctrination program worked for them.  Obviously we are wrong, and government does actually work for the people.  Gee, how could have I been so wrong?

/end sarcasm

Oh, yeah, social security - the govenment system I pay into, but will never see a penny of.  Oh yeah, national defense - in use by the last administration for defeating the regime in Iraq as a ruse for the WMDs that never existed.  Train? Never use it.  About the only thing the government can seemingly do right is overspend and misappropriate - and not read legislation in Congress but pass it anyway.  Oh yeah, that’s the kind of government we need to set things right!!  HA!!!

By grannysgadgets on 06-28-09

All these new bills, laws, and changes are flying around at the speed of light, we barely get a chance to research into them, before they are forced through !
Anyone aware of this lil tidbit ??
H. J. Res. 5: Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the United States to repeal the twenty-second
Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the United States to repeal the twenty-second article of amendment, thereby removing the limitation on the number of terms an individual may serve as President.
Rep. José Serrano [D-NY16
This resolution is in the first step in the legislative process.  May also be signed into law by the president.
I know it’s off subject, but I deem it important enough to mention.

By woody on 06-28-09

Google the name below to see the true health care industry from the inside:

Wendell Potter, the former Vice President of Communications for Cigna Insurance Company

AND then tell me that all the horror stories from the rightwing about the gov are ALREADY HAPPENING UNDER THE CURRENT SYSTEM by the private corporations.

Google Wendell Potter and if it doesn’t make you absolutely sick then you lack basic empathy.

By BillWatson on 06-28-09

I am not trying to pick a fight but; I would like to know why a dual system offering a choice between government and private care would not be our best health care reform solution?

The private care option would allow individuals or businesses the unlimited choice of doctors, clinics, hospitals, timing, and treatments, Ford Fiesta or Rolls-Royce, but it would require the user to pay privately for their health services, either by self pay, company pay, private insurance, whatever, but all government funded programs should only be distributed through the new national system to assure cost control and outcomes.

If private insurers and care providers did not have to subsidize indigent care and preexisting conditions patients, and were not forced to deal with government mandates within their businesses, would they not be more efficient and profitable?

Without government owned and operated facilities substantial cost reductions are not possible.

Government needs to become the basic necessities no frills provider of health care.

Going back and forth between free public, and user purchased private care, may suit some people, it would provide unlimited choices, ultimate freedom, and always free public care would be available when it is needed.

A national health care system could also take over states and local government’s health care systems to assure VA operating standards and relieve local funding problems while providing total transferability for patients.

Using a dedicated national sales tax funding source in conjunction with the VA’s delivery and software records systems means we don’t need to reinvent the wheel.
The system could be jump started by acquiring health delivery systems around the country that would choose to sell to, and be integrated into, the new public National Health Care System.

Building new public health care facilities will produce capital assets that will continue to serve Americans for generations, and provide millions of construction jobs today and millions of new health care jobs forever.

This is not socialized medicine; it is democracy at its finest identifying a need to remove, what for many has become a voracious health care monster, from off of the backs of individuals and businesses, and correcting the problem in a prudent and efficient manner.

By grannysgadgets on 06-29-09

JB : YES !  Make mine freedom, such a great cartoon !  I viewed this awhile ago on youtube, puts it all in a nice unerstandable package dont it !

By woody on 06-29-09

People need to take 1 minute and glance at the above posts -

the rightwingers that do not want any public health care option NEVER use FACTS.  They use fear - their main weapon.

AND then look at what the lefties posts - most make use of FACTS - which the rightwingers ignore by calling us socialists.

The definition of Socialism is the government owning the means of production.  For example the police dep is socialist - the police are paid directly by the gov, the police dep is on gov land etc.

Facts include:
1. America spends 2x as much money on health care as any other developed nation while insuring around 75% of the people. -  Every other country insures 100% of the people for cheaper.
2. The other countries live longer, and beat us in every other category.
3. 75% of bankruptcies in America are caused by health care bills from PEOPLE THAT HAD INSURANCE and it didn’t cover what they thought it did.
4. 72% of Americans want a public option.  If we don’t get it it’ll show how the Politicians are in bed w/  the Corporations thru lobbying and don’t follow the will of the people. The perfect system of the so-called libertarians - when you hear the word “libertarian” -  think corporate profits at any cost - that is the ONLY thing they believe in.

Above are some FACTS that the rightwing will ignore in their push for the all-powerful corporations to profit at the expense of WE THE PEOPLE.

The rightwing HATES WE THE PEOPLE.

By JB on 06-29-09

Obama has broken his word, stating today that he would raise taxes that people have to pay for his national health care plan.  What’s more, Pelosi has declined to give a week to the public to review the current bill, which is now almost 1100 pages long!!  Is this the kind of government that is acceptable to the left - to give up the freedom of the people, to “protect” the people - in the NAME OF THE PEOPLE???

You’re not only hypocrites - you are all also LIARS!!!  MAY OBAMA BURN IN HELL, ALONG WITH HIS MINIONS!!!!

By emerson on 06-29-09

First JB - Obama did not state today what you said he did—talk about honesty… Second - you seem to hate America a lot. There are plenty of third-world nations out there that would suit you very well: privilege and freedom for the absolute wealthy - crap for everyone else. Why don’t you take up residence in one of those countries that practice a form of “civilization” a little closer to the one you are espousing.

By JB on 06-29-09

@emerson -  Here’s the article:

http://www.newsmax.com/headlines/obama_healthcare_tax/2009/06/28/229497.html

Great, another leftie socialist…Why don’t you try proving your honesty and show me some proof, instead of just more rhetoric?

By JB on 06-29-09

Here are more links, in case you don’t believe me:

http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1907062,00.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/29/gibbs-wont-say-whether-ob_n_222542.html

By woody on 06-29-09

Wow JB - here you are quoting newsmax, time and huffington post -

and just in a few posts above you say disparaging remarks about everyone else who quotes those same news sources.

YOU are part of the HATE AMERICA FIRST crowd -  the same garbage eminating from you was the same garbage McVeigh said.

THE GOV IS WE THE PEOPLE -  we are the gov.  Figure it out.

But no you are a corporate apologist -  whatever they do is A/OK -  but the gov is EVIL -  even though we have a DIRECT SAY in who the gov is -

Corporations - we have no say what so ever about -  except as CONSUMERS . 

AMERICANS are more than consumers -  we are CITIZENS and the Populas. And the body Politic.  Your lack of factual basis besides some crackpot news media outlet is Shocking.

Which proves you do hate the people of this country - WE WANT PUBLIC HEALTH CARE!  Every poll shows that - ACCEPT THE FACTS -  JUST FOR ONCE!

BUT the multi-national -  you have never uttered a word against -  that makes you a corportist - better defined by mussulinio as fascism.

YOU and YOUR ilk are dangerous to AMERICA and to WE THE PEOPLE!

Which is why you are considered an extremist.

If it walks like a duck

quack quack -

By Kal61 on 06-29-09

Right, left, right, left….who gives a damn? The fact is that we are being pushed down a Socialist slide with nothing to grab and hang onto. It’s scary.

By JB on 06-29-09

We are going to happily hand our children and grandchildren the bill for our life of luxury. And they’ll be responsible for paying the price. The current $53 Trillion in unfunded liability for Medicare alone is worth more than the country itself. And that’s before we start counting the cost of ANY of this ‘bailout’ fiasco.

America is, in a word…insolvent. Our offspring will be serfs on the continent their forefathers conquered, sold into indentured servitude by their own parents…But at least you can stay in that house you bought for far more than you could afford. At least you’ll get your Welfare, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid benefits…after all, “you’re entitled.“ Like Gunnery Sergeant Hartman said…“They’re payin’ for it; YOU eat it!“

The children of the spoiled, rotten, gimme generation (that’s baby boomers, hippie freaks, entitlement brats, whatever you want to call them), plus assorted offspring of non-producing social loafers could be excused for holding a grudge and stopping payment on your subsidy checks as a way of saying thanks for selling them into slavery.

It is the earnest claim of all tyrants to represent the common good. Robbing one group (the purportedly “privileged”) of the fruits of their labor, and giving it to the “poor and disenfranchised” is but a convenient plot device that endears the mass-murdering politician to the ignorant masses…i.e. the support base he needs to carry out his blood-soaked plans for domination.

Taxes increase, civil liberties are trampled, property rights are eliminated, freedom of association is eliminated, privacy is invaded…it’s a predictable pattern…

The story always ends the same way: Mass graves, starvation, privation and madness are in our future.  Welcome to the beginning of the end of America.

You know, it really doesn’t matter…the politicans are just players on the stage, just like the Hollywood types, left, right, conservative, liberal, libertarian, constitutionalist, socialist, communist, etc…they are all players.  We have all been suckered - and we are all going to pay.

Enjoy it while it lasts.

By JB on 06-29-09

@emerson - Semantics.  Obama has been given an out…and you don’t think he’s gonna take it?  Hope you enjoy your shiny new health benefits - right along with the tax bill for them.

By JB on 06-30-09

@emerson - The skyrocketing cost of health care in this country is primarily because of bureaucratic interfering with the doctor-patient relationship, which drives costs higher. The current system of third-party payers takes decision-making away from doctors, leaving patients feeling rushed and worsening the quality of care. Yet health insurance premiums and drug costs keep rising. Clearly something different needs to be done. Congress needs to generate legislation that makes health care more affordable without raising taxes or increasing the deficit. It also needs to repeal bad laws that keep health care costs higher than necessary.

The current system of laws requiring employers to offer health insurance to its employees is obviously not working - but the public never hears about how government imposed the present system in the 1970’s, and its failure to deliver promised benefits and cause more unintended consequences.  Congress never blames itself for the situation created by bad laws, so we are told that even more government, in the form of a national health care system, is the answer.  Our government is already involved, to the tune of two thirds of health care spending, in programs like Medicare, Medicaid, and the like.  That is the primary reason why health care is so expensive - and with more government intervention, health care costs will go the same direction - UP.  As long as the bill is paid by “someone else”, health costs will always be too high.

I do not disagree that some form of government is necessary.  I disagree on an excessive amount of interference that goverment can exert on our lives and limit our freedoms.  I am certainly not a libertarian - as some here would label me.  I am not a “extremist” either.  Does freedom to express my political views make me a terrorist?  Some would see that as a wholly erroneous assumption - including myself.

In his first 6 months, Obama has spent more money than any other president in the same amount of time in history.  All of these spending measures were ramrodded through Congress and to his desk without so much as a by your leave - a contradiction to his supposed commitment to “transparency” and “accountability”.  There is no oversight at all, despite his campaign promises to the contrary.  I sincerely doubt that this country will last 6 years at this rate - and by that time, it won’t matter anyway.

Some people want government to take care of everything for them, some people want no inteference from government at all, and then there is everything level of intervention in between.  I don’t need my government to take care of me - I can do that myself.  By the same token, I don’t condone excessive government inteference in the way I live my life or conduct my affairs - because it is not government’s concern - as long as I obey current laws, I should be free to pursue “life, liberty, and happiness” in the manner I see fit.

By grannysgadgets on 06-30-09

The national debt is skyrocketing. In 2009 publicly held debt is projected to jump to 54.8 percent of GDP, up from 40.8 percent in 2008. A year-to-year increase of this size hasn’t occurred since World War II. While the main causes of this massive increase – $787 billion economic “stimulus” and the $700 billion Troubled Asset Relief Program (TARP) – are sure to be debated for some time, the truly frightening revelation should be not what has already taken place, but what our elected officials have planned.
President Obama’s budget, if passed, would send debt to levels 26.3 percent of GDP over current law. Although President Obama has publicly stated his desire to both bring down deficits and reform entitlements under his watch, his actions don’t match his words.
As The Washington Post points out, What is more alarming is that, barring major spending cuts or tax increases, President Obama’s budget could drive that figure to 82 percent by 2019, according to the Congressional Budget Office.”It’s no wonder that during his recent trip to China US Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner was laughed at when he tried to persuade the Chinese that the US debt they hold was a “very safe” asset.

By woody on 06-30-09

Click the link below and listen to an interview w/ Wendell Potter - ex executive of one of the largest health care insurance providers in the country and see how business is really conducted. 

Go to 6-25-09 Hour 2

http://www.620kpoj.com/cc-common/podcast/single_podcast.html?podcast=hartmann_nationwide.xml

FACTS:

Debt when Reagan took over in 1981 -  less than 1 trillion
1988 - end of reagans years - debt over 3 trillion -  300% increase over 8 years

Bush 1 - 3 trillion went up to 5 trillion -  40% increase in 4 years

Clinton - 5 trillion debt when he came in went up to 6 trillion -  16% increase

Bush 2 (shrub bush) came in w/ 6 trillion - went up to 12 trillion 100% increase —and that doesnt’ even take into acccount the 800 billion in bailouts by the treasury - OR the 10 trillion given away by the fed reserve that the Republicans are trying to say was caused by Obama.  Which would be 6 trillion to 20 trillion imn debt - 300% increase in the national debt.

THOSE ARE FACTS!

AND they want to say the demo’s are bAd - you hAve to be over 70 years old to have been able to vote for a republican president that balanced a budget -  the LAST DEMOCRATIC president did it. Clinton

AMAZING the cognitive dissonance from the right!

By grannysgadgets on 06-30-09

What IS Leftism?

In good academic style I start with a definition: The first thing to say is that Leftism is emotional. The second is to say that the emotion is negative and the third thing to say is that the negative emotion (anger/hate/rage) is directed at the world about the Leftist, the status quo if you like. The Leftist is nothing if he is not a critic, though usually a very poorly-informed critic. And the criticisms are both pervasive and deeply felt.  Well known to anyone who reads blogs from both sides of the divide: Profanity is hugely more common on Leftist blogs. A systematic study of the matter found profanity to be TWELVE TIMES more common on Leftist blogs. Profanity is of course an attempt to express one’s feelings strongly.  Because the Leftist is angry rather than prudent, however, he cares not a bit for the conservative’s caution. The most thorough-going Leftist just wants to smash everything that exists around him out of the feeling that it is all so hateful that none of it is worth preserving. And in the French revolution, the Bolshevik revolution, the Maoist revolution and many more minor revolutions, the Leftists got their way—with results we all know about. Doing any sort of a good job of putting back together what they have smashed is beyond them. They are destroyers only. Hate is not constructive. Because we all know of those dismal results, Leftist activists and politicians in entrenched democracies have to be more careful. Expressing the full extent of their feelings and advocating revolution would simply marginalize them and they know that. So they have to find ways of undermining society in more subtle ways. And they are greatly aided in that by the complex nature of modern society. Most people have only the vaguest notion of how society works so the Leftist politician can propose various changes that sound good but which will be disastrous in practice—with “share and share alike” being the classic example of that.

By grannysgadgets on 06-30-09

JB : Below is a link, just want to give you a bit of satisfaction that outside of this box, there are many MANY that share our thoughts…... ( you will probably have to copy and paste the addy into your address bar)

http://buzz.yahoo.com/article/1:y_news:4d7db95dd0674a00d9008ff967563a75/Obama-pushes-Senate-to-act-on-climate-measure-AP;_ylt=AskerGSTIsJUDhfEv3v27F16fNdF

By JB on 06-30-09

Bernanke himself made this statement on Thursday before the House Oversight Committee to Rep. John Duncan from Tenessee, when told that a majority of Congress is behind HR1207:

“My concern about the legislation is that if the GAO is auditing not only the operational aspects of the programs and the details of the programs but making judgments about our policy decisions would effectively be a takeover of policy by the Congress and a repudiation of the independence of the Federal Reserve would be highly destructive to the stability of the financial system, the dollar and our national economic situation.”

This is nothing more than a veiled threat - and the government wants to give MORE power to these clowns to manage US economic policy??

We are extremists??  Typical of you, woody, to label people who have an opinion that doesn’t agree with yours as an extremist.  I don’t see anybody here trying to discredit you - but you seem to need to play the “blame game” on anyone who does not fall in line with your sharply narrow vision of the world.

Yeah, Clinton - the last Democractic president - let’s see here:

- Was under scrutiny for his real estate dealings
- Had at least 2 known illicit affairs (and lied about them)
- Was nearly impeached by Congress because of the Lewinsky affair
- Had his law license suspended by the Arkansas Supreme Court, then resigned when threatened with disbarment from that same court

Oh, never mind all that, he balanced the budget!!  Never mind that the man has no morals of his own…so pathetic.

By Roark on 06-30-09

emerson SAID,“Medicare is way too expensive”
—-Yes it is too expensive, but that is not the main crux of it’s immorality. Medicare is morally wrong because it violates one man’s right to his own property, money, in order to supply another man for the un-earned via government force.

emerson SAID,“...Democrats are trying to reform Health Care - and take some lessons from those countries that have better outcomes while paying half as much…“
—-Let’s call a spade a spade; Democrats are trying to have the government take over your healthcare. The politicians in DC who destroy everything they touch want to be the ones responsible for the rationing of healthcare in America. They want to make Dr’s subservient to the whims of the state. They will decide who waits and who will get life saving treatments, because if it costs too much…too bad. Instead of man being charge of his own health and his own decisions between his Dr. and he, it is now in the hands of the state, who to begin with must make everyone miserable equally.

emerson SAID,“and take some lessons from those countries that have better outcomes while paying half as much…“
—-Like lessons where government controlled/rationed health “care” has the state deciding wether you or your loved one will have that procedure because of cost? Socialized medicine advocates talk of this health coverage utopia, but they fail to understand reality; money dictates your avail options. What’s more, socialized medicine needs to be exposed at the root moral level; it is a gross violation of mans right to his own life and property.

emerson SAID,“Simply doing nothing - or continuing down the same path of putting all of our eggs in the basket of the insurance industry is foolish.“
—-The only moral solution to health care, and the one that has the greatest benefit, is a laissez-faire free market health care. None other is moral, fair, or as excellent in quality. Man needs to be held responsible for his own health, That means he needs to have the character to make decisions regarding his future. He needs to be RESPONSIBLE. And if he does happen to fall on hard times then he should seek the help of those who can help and who do care; family, friends, private charity. Government pits man against man, because by robbing the wealth of each it is making enemies and usurping he choice that belongs to man alone to make.

emerson SAID,“Based on history - I will predict that the deficit will be on its way out by the time he is done with his terms - judge him them”
—-If you think that he will be able to pay down much of (and i’ll even guess low) the 1 trillion dollar debt before his term is up, and thats assuming he’s in for 8 years (god forbid) then I will personally give you everything I own. It will not happen. It can’t happen. He would have to raise taxes (and yes that means those making under $250,000) exponentially. In fact, his reckless spending may have doomed America financially.

By JB on 06-30-09

Amen Roark…thank you for your insights.

By emerson on 06-30-09

Roark - Your simple-minded platitudes and Ayn Rand Objectivist worship collapse under the weight of the fact of human history.

It is easy and simple to say “that the only laws we should have are those that protect against force or fraud”—but human history and reality show that this philosophy is a dangerous oversimplification.

Most laws and regulations have evolved over time because this is a complex world with complex interrelationships.

Elected officials often say they hear two things from most people (often the same people at the same time): “Get the government off my back!“ and “There ought to be a law against that!“

For example: if a property owner upstream from you pollutes your water downstream is this force or fraud? Should there be a law against that? Should you just sue your neighbor upstream? If you sue - what is the governing law?

If a person is born with a genetic condition (no fault of their own) and it is of no economic value for a private company to insure them - should we just let them die (sorry - bad luck of the draw?)

Who should build and maintain roads to far-flung reaches where pure economics don’t justify such investments? (Like Montana) Just leave these places as colonies for the ultra-rich to fly-into? Leave them fallow and force the compression of civilization around urban areas?

If a person is laid off from a job for no fault of their own or because the corporation has found it cheaper in another less regulated country - should there be no unemployment insurance?

What about a corporation (say in Libby) that exposes an entire town to toxics and harm - leaving many dead—who is to regulate this?

The reality is that the Laissez-faire you romantically talk about is nothing but the law of the jungle - the law of nature… It is what the world is without civilization - in the absence of democratic society. It is what today’s cilvilizations have evolved from, not what we should aspire to.

We can see with absolute clarity where you and those who share you dangerous philosophies want to take us—because we can simply look back into history and see from whence we came…

Where there were no child labor laws and children were exploited in mines (and still are in unregulated nations)

Where the rich and wealthy use their power and influence to step on the necks of everyone else and poverty rates are about 90%

Where corporations use their “freedom” to pollute the water and the land that they share with others and cause children to die young…

Laws and regulations have grown primarily as a result as a protection of “force and fraud” just as you say. It is just that the world is either more complex than you are willing to admit - or able to grasp.

By JB on 06-30-09

@emerson - must be a city dweller, huh?  Feel trampled on, oppressed, a victim?  Just like wanting the government to act like a glorified Robin Hood - take from the rich, give to the poor…straighten out all the injustices of the world?  You are right - the world is a very complex place - but leveling the playing field is not the answer.  As some have said here, employees are not hired by poor people.  Laissez-faire capitalism has been responsible for the upward surge in the standard of living for every American.  Technological advances that were a dream 20 years ago are available to even the poorest of us - how do you think that comes about?  We have one of the highest standards of living in the world - because of the free market.  You really want your children to pay for Obama’s mistakes?  Look at how California has tried to adopt cap-and-trade and put controls on everything.  Where are they now?  Fighting to stay alive, with the worst fiscal deficit in their history.  Try learning from that.

By grannysgadgets on 06-30-09

Yep ! Get a craft, or skill, and perfect it quick. Barter could be your last hope ! ( THANKFULLY, from living within my means, I am thrifty, and from relying on ourselves there is many things that we can make/produce on our own)  See the thought seems to be that all the rest of us ( Minus the left) Have a huge stock pile of money, that we can afford to have taxed and pay for every others needs and wants. The sad point is that all this is going to do is tax everyone out of work. Now if the workers arnt working ( because with all thats happening it may get to expensive to even get to work, thats IF there is a job to go too when the smoke clears). Then once it is all said and done, and the ones that worked no longer work, who then might I ask is then going to pay for you ?  When we can no longer pay for ourselves ?  Then do you sit, with nothing ( as all of us will equally have) and pray for a golden goose ??
If you crush all the worker ants in a ant hill, what then happens ?  would not the queen ant and the larva be left to starve ??
I mean REALLY, COME ON ! Do you think that us common people that work 40 hours a week ( and still cant make it on that alone) that then save up and start side businesses ( through saving and going without, in hopes to generate more)  In the end now work 7 days a week, and still are only meeting the bills, payments, and ect.. Can somehow work even harder ?  Can in some way we do more then they already are to survive the added weight that will sit on them ??  When you watch every dollar, when you in fact keep the bills paid, when you grow a garden to supliment ( and spend your fall canning), and hang clothes out to dry to save money, cut coupons, limit your driving, and sacrafice all the above to try to live in some form of comfort, this is what you DUB AS GREED ?  This is what you DUB AS HATE ?  I am the almighty rich one that owes YOU ?  WHY ?  why can you not do the same ?  is it asking to much ? BUT yet ask it of me !!!!  THEN, THEN you state consistantly that I am some sort of extremist, extreme at what ? raising a family ?  Doing my share ? extreme at having never asked you for anything ? well yes to all the above, is that what you mean ??

By grannysgadgets on 06-30-09

Mtsongbirld: I do see your point, and maybe if it was just the health care issue that will cost us, we could possibly pull it off, but are you aware of all the other taxes, and added expenses also coming down the line ?  One has to look at the whole BIG picture being drawn out here, every single new bill coming through is set to add even more weight on EACH of us, that ALL has to be taken into consideration, not just the single one. ( we cannot just balance our check book by deducting our house payment , due to its importance, we have to deduct every thing we spend or will spend)  and helping is good, but ( yes always a but) Does no one realize that there comes a point that a household can no longer bear the brunt of the load ?  There is not just this healthcare bill happening now, there are many MANY others.
Things are CRAZY, could we afford a little more ? maybe, can we afford more expense added to every aspect of our lives ? NO.  Many of us are going to be pushed to the very edge financially.

By mtsongbird on 06-30-09

Grannygadgets, thank you for your cordial response. I believe I did say that we were in trouble on many fronts. I appreciate the checkbook analogy and know it for real since I am already looming over that financial abyss. I think that in every era there have always been taxes and expenses coming down the road. I don’t think we’re that unique in that but I’ve been reading all the posts here and I read a lot from other sources online, mostly professional economists and people in the health care industry. So looking at the BIG picture, universal health care combined with a private choice option seems really sane to me. If Medicare can function with a 2%-3% admin cost overhead, then private care can as well. It cannot be denied that much of private insurance costs are going into shareholders pockets. Hospitals used to be all non-profit and doctors and health care seemed to do OK financially. The new information technologies are going to really help put this into serious and effective play. As said over and over and over, a public option will provide care for those who can’t afford more expensive private care and will in turn oblige private care to be less expensive and more effective. People and businesses who no longer have to pay gargantuan health care premiums will not suffer unduely from a tax rise. Remember that 72% of Americans want a universal option and have also said they will accept a tax increase to get it. They can do the math. They know their tax bills will not increase to the level of the thousands and thousands they have to pay now for very expensive yet restrictive private care.

By mtsongbird on 06-30-09

Emerson, very true. Health care is a not only a big budget killer, it’s a huge business killer. We can’t afford the way it’s set up now.

I asked Max Baucus that same question about how other countries are able to manage it - why can’t we? I asked what studies his commitee had done on how these systems work in just about every other industrialized country. I haven’t gotten any response from him yet! Well, I got a first response in a form letter email that said America wasn’t Canada or Britain and that we needed a uniquely American solution. Max! I replied, that statement is so totally unworthy of you!

As things stand right now, I guess if I develop a serious health issue, I’m on a plane for Spain. In 14 years of living in Barcelona, as a non-citizen, I never had to pay one penny for the infrequent times I needed health care. The government paid for me. Imagine that!

One of the health care stories on the web site I posted - here’s a better link:

http://healthcare.barackobama.com/stories

was from the gentleman that was setting up a biomass fuels processing plant in Whitefish. Great, no? But he busted his leg skiing and had to sell the company to pay his medical costs. His health care crises not only shut him down, but shut down his new green business and the people who worked for him! This is tragic! This kind of thing just cannot be allowed to continue when we can solve it!

By grannysgadgets on 06-30-09

Well, I guess it is what it is…...
>sigh<  I’ve been busting my rump all day ( breaking here and there trying to get the point across that the American worker/ entrepreneur cannot take care of everything, for everyone. I have to prepare it by myself, as my husband has to work as well ) Anyways I am almost loaded up for this week. YES, I have to leave my home, animals, and the like to go work like a dog day in and out for the next 6 days ( NOPE, no holiday celebration in this house, GOTTA WORK) .  BUT, hey its ok, I’ll just get on out of this conversation ( what right do I have to discuss what may be dictated upon me RIGHT ?)  I only earn it, guess that does not mean it is mine any longer…..... So go on ahead, spend it for me, I will try to come up with new ideas so I can try to harvest in a little more ( maybe a 8 day work week will do ?) 
The government cannot spend money of it’s own, because you see the money they spend comes from us ( well, most of us).  With that I must close,
So JB, Roark, Mooseberryinn, Cowgirl, and Truther  
You all have a great Independence Day, if fireworks are involved, light a few off for me !!!  Until next week, take care, and stay safe !

By Cowgirl Up on 06-30-09

Since I am on SS and Medicare (I’m over 65) I think I can speak to some of the problems….Medicare covers less than 20% of healthcare…no dental and very limited eye care. It’s not really a very good health coverage….and I still have to pay for it out of my SS payments….not leaving much left over to live on. Soooo…hi ho…hi ho…it’s off to work I go…..........
Sorry you have to work granny…happy 4th. anyway!!!

By Roark on 06-30-09

The difference between me, emerson and mtsongbird is that I find slavery reprehensible.

By woody on 07-01-09

what doesn’t work is republicans and the truth in the same sentence!

By JB on 07-01-09

Touche, Truther…its a lot like “all star wrestling” in that regard, just eye candy for those who find politics entertaining…like following entertainers or other such mindless dribble…

By mooseberryinn on 07-01-09

The idiot b.o. strikes again.  we’re doomed.

By emerson on 07-01-09

So the rightwing is losing support at record levels and has failed to the point of being virtually irrelevant and full of paranoid backwooders, corporate brown nosers and racists…

Meanwhile Barack Obama (with a name like that even!) manages to become the first African American president of the United States…

And some fellow in the back woods of Montana named “mooseberry” thinks Barack Obama is the idiot…

By woody on 07-01-09

JB said:  MAY OBAMA BURN IN HELL, ALONG WITH HIS MINIONS!!!!

AS I said just another rightwing extremist

from the HATE AMERICA FIRST CROWD.

By JB on 07-01-09

Woody Woodpecka…at least you’re consistent…just another left wing hack job with a nowhere life.

America:  land of the sheep, home of the slave…

By JB on 07-01-09

@emerson: so you’re right all the time huh?  That sounds typical of a left wing hack nutjob to me…

By emerson on 07-01-09

JB - cool it with the rhetoric - you should lay off the Limbaugh and Hannity propaganda for a bit - it’ll do ya well! America is neither purely a capitalist nation nor a socialist nation—trying to place labels in such crude ways does not do justice to your intellect.

I am a progressive. That means I am for societal progress and positive change -vs- those who fight against progress and positive change (which people usually call themselves conservatives). Conservatives typically fight against change - even change that history has proven to be positive change (civil rights, environmental movement, equal rights for women, trust busting…)

I believe that reality and history show that civilized societies need to have governments.

And based on that reality: I am for a government that works for me and my family. Gives me value for my tax dollars through services like good roads, good schools, a solid safety net if life doesn’t go the way planned.

I think spending Billions of dollars starting foreign wars and occupying countries and paying out billions in no-bid contracts to the vice-president’s former company is not a wise use of tax dollars.

I believe in democracy—and that government should work for all people—and not just for the rich and powerful.

I believe that America should be a democracy first and a marketplace second. Our country shouldn’t just be a big auction.

That certainly doesn’t mean that I believe that the politicians I vote for get it right according to me every time… I disagree often with what those I vote for do… but that is the nature of a democracy.

But I do believe that the democracy part of America is in peril—not from Obama, as you may believe, but because the country acts more like an auction than a democracy.

For example, nearly 75% of Americans want a public-option health insurance program… But it will very likely not happen because the the insurance industry is spending 1 MILLION DOLLARS each day lobbying. Is that a democracy?

We need more people to stand for the will of the people and less pandering to the powerful and wealthy.

By JB on 07-01-09

@emerson - OK, the truth now…the kid gloves are coming off.

I don’t follow with Limbaugh, Hannity, or any of that ilk when it comes to my political viewpoints.  My views may sound like they come from them,,, but in reality, they don’t.

(now you’ll really think I’m extremist…oh well…)

It pains me to say this, but I believe that we are seeing the beginning of the end of the United States as we know it.  Obama will not save us.  All of these issues like cap-and-trade, health care reform, etc., they are just eye candy for the world to feast on.

Do you know why conspiracy theories exist?  I’ll tell you why - BECAUSE THERE IS NO TRUST IN THE GOVERNMENT!!!

I believe that we are facing an economic depression of such scope that makes the Great Depression look like a bad dream.  This current rise in the market is a false signal that the economy is turning around - its being buoyed by false money from the Fed.  We have already seen a housing financial crisis and a banking crisis last year - this year, it will be most likely a commercial property crisis.  Eventually, you will see a total collapse of the American economy.

You will see a lot of things happening in the next few years.  The major cities of this country, in the next 7-10 years, will be demilitarized zones, with multiple riots, civil unrest, and violence unlike anything you have ever seen in your life.  When people go hungry, they will do anything to stay alive.  Thank goodness I am here and not in one of those areas.

You know, I hope I am dead wrong.  I really do.  But I can’t help seeing the reality of our present circumstances - and I truly fear that time will prove me right.

By JB on 07-01-09

@emerson- OK, stop with the judging of what you think I am!! This is still a free country right?  Where a person can express themselves, even if you think they are wrong, or even crazy?

As someone once said, “Current trends predict future events.“

Google “Peter Schiff” and “Gerald Celente” - probably two of the most prominent trends forecasters alive - and look at what they have to say.  Look at the data they present - the data speaks for itself.

Placing blame on any one group is not important - the damage is done, and I am to blame as much as anyone for falling into that trap.  The issue is what we do about it now.

I do appreciate that you have faith in the human spirit and the desire for progress - but I fear it will not be enough.  I also appreciate that you have faith in the spirit of America - but fancy speeches and overt acts of kindness are window dressing.

We are heading for a disaster of biblical proportions.  It scares me beyond belief.  We cannot pay for the economy that Obama is proposing - no one outside our country will loan us any more money.  We are broke - at the end of our economic rope.  That means that the Fed will print more fiat money.  Our trade partners will stop taking our dollars for their goods.  If the government puts pricing controls in place, there will be long lines just to get a loaf of bread - just like in the former Soviet Union.  Soon, there will be no foreign goods, no oil, no trade….the dollar will implode.

Just look at the facts, OK?  That’s all I ask…listen to what these guys have to say.  They’ve been right a lot more than they’ve been wrong.  I have made a fortune based on trends, so I know for a fact that the trends do a pretty good job of predicting the future.

If you’ve read this far, thanks for hearing me out.

By Truther on 07-02-09

These left wing hack-jobs really trip me out,with all their, left this right that,they sound like my old drill seargent…..LLLEEEFFFT!!  LEEFFFT!! YO LEFT RIGHT LEFT!!!!FORWARD MAAARRCH!!!!
On the serious side though they always fail to mention it was the Clintons who brought this Economical Succession/depression on with NAFTA.And as far as B.O. goes he is just finishing what the Bushes started.Bush =war…B.O.=war..What happened to all those promises made by B.O. to end the wars we are in?What happened to all those promises made by B.O. for NO NEW TAXES on the poor and middle class. LIES,LIES,LIES!!!AND you left wing hack jobs are still following along like little sheep.Either that or you are just too ashamed to admit you screwed up….GET IT THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULLS THAT THE HIGHER ECHELONS OF POWER IN THIS COUNTRY DONT GIVE A CRAP ABOUT YOU!!!GET REAL!!!

By JB on 07-02-09

Britain is a prime example of a national health care system gone wrong.  Consider the source - you will see articles and people saying that they are happy with it, and still others saying that there are people not getting approved for major procedures, or in the best case, having that kind of care pushed out months or even years into the future.  That doesn’t sound any better than what we have in place now.  More choices?  Yep, the left is correct…you will have a choice to be just as miserable with the new system as with the old, with the richest 2 percent getting hit with the bill.

By Roark on 07-02-09

cefi, I suggest that you ask yourself this question…“who owns your life?-you or the state?“