Comments on: Deer Harvest Ends Slightly Higher than Last Year
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By BiggerMig on 11-26-12 @ 10:05 pm
How can this be? Haven’t the loathsome wolves eradicated nearly every living thing in the forest, leaving behind nothing but fellow, though somewhat less loathsome, predators?
By Kokanee on 11-27-12 @ 1:36 am
The only thing more loathsome than the big bad wolf are it’s supporters. There is far more tothis story than the chest thumping created by FWP. Just what would you consider a succesful
season is relative and therefore arbitrarily bendable to suit ones views.
Your want for predators outweighs my need for an organic sustainable source of protein(insert
selfish here)!? Just a simple google of hunters sucess rates for surrounding states would show
you Montana is far behind on percentages. I was personally by the check stations at least five
different occasions that they were closed so I will not be led by some one that wants to insure
thier job is not in jeopardy. The final counts for the year will not be in for a while so save
your Loathsome Lip Service for your anthromorophic brethren
By jimbo on 11-27-12 @ 7:22 am
There was no snow last winter. Of course the whities are going to make a comeback. Elk wereequally unaffected. One of the reasons there was less hunters is the fact that daddy couldn’t
take jr. out and shoot a cow on jrs tag this year in Region 1. Many many hunters headed for
other regions where “youth” hunters could continue the slaughter of cows(thanks to HB 42 and the
elephant party).
And yes, mig, there are areas around the valley that are virtual deserts due to predators.
Tally lake area, and mountain meadow come to mind. Other places had all kinds of deer around.
I killed my bull third weekend of rifle on a Saturday, and there was but 1 other truck on the
whole road. Even with the subsequent fresh snow falls we had, the only people I saw were road
hunters, nobody parked and walking.
I know of one taxidermist that is very busy this year. Many good bucks taken, a couple HUGE
BULLS too, far more than he has had the past couple years.
By BiggerMig on 11-27-12 @ 9:17 pm
Kokanee—I think you mean ‘anthropomorphic’, although that word seems to describe the people who have actually, not in jest, labeled the wolves ‘loathsome’. Wolves gotta’ eat too.
By montanaeasy56 on 11-28-12 @ 8:31 pm
People need to understand and take with a grain of salt everything that comes from FWP’s press releases. When they tell you that “hunters were very happy with the amount of game
they were seeing,” how do you know they aren’t just blowing smoke to make their management
look good. They told us a few years after the winter of 96-97 that we “should be seeing a big
increase in BIG bucks in the next few seasons.” Never happened. They told us that the
cow/calf ratio is improving in Region 1 and we will be seeing an increase in elk populations.
Didn’t happen. In fact they took away hunting opportunites in Region 1 because the elk
numbers are low. Every time they try to build their case about how good they are managing
wildlife it backfires in their face. I haven’t trusted anything they have said for the past 10 years
and I suspect that will continue. They are coming to the fast conclusion that they are NOT
going to be able to feed the hunters AND the wolf. Hunters will have to be controlled since they
have proven they can’t control the wolf.
By jimbo on 11-28-12 @ 8:57 pm
Whoa whoa whoa, wait a minute easy56. Are you gonna sit there and say elk numbers never came upafter 97? Holy crap man. If you couldn’t kill an elk during say 2000- 2009, you were not
trying. You could fart in the woods and get a bull to bugle and come right in those years. You
continually blame FWP for EVERYTHING. Jeezus man, game populations spiked in 2004, look at the
stats! I got em, you can get em too. Have you ever looked at HB 42, I have said it before.
The Barrett bill. After Debbie Barrett from Dillon whom sponsored it. Her and all the
Republican cronies, bought and paid for by the livestock industry, and yes, including all the
schmucks from the flathead too, got together and passed this bill. It required, yes, REQUIRED,
FWP to reduce elk numbers state wide. I will say it again, the legislature passed a bill
requiring FWP to reduce elk numbers statewide. And what else came along then? Wolf numbers
spiked, due to all freaking game man! Canines have the ability to do that. And they did.
What else came along about then? The “youth” hunt. Do you know how many cows were being killed
every year in R1? I do. Near 600 a year, that is just from the phone surveys. How many were
not called, that killed a cow? They would get a hold of me and ask if I killed a turkey and saw
any wolves wouldn’t even ask if I killed an elk. You can call up and get those numbers too!
Every hunter I tell, simply can’t believe how many cows have been killed in R1 over the years.
Why do you think so many people went to the public meeting and demanded they stop this crap.
They didn’t want to. The bios told me face to face, they didn’t want to stop the hunt, they
have the numbers to support it, and they would have continued it. R1 was the ONLY region under
objective in the far-gone-needs-to-be-re-written elk management plan. And it got there because
of HB 42, not because of wolves. I am sick of people whining about wolves, then voting the same
numbskulled legislators back in, so that they can go continually stab hunters in the back. Just
like the last session.
And here we go again, same bunch of losers headed to Helena to screw us again. It is obvious
from your post that you don’t listen and still haven’t looked it up, like I told you before.
The legislature, the republican legislature, is just as culpable as wolves. And in my opinion,
they are worse.
By montanaeasy56 on 11-29-12 @ 9:12 am
No I’m not saying the elk numbers didn’t go up after 96-97. The cow/calf ratios didn’t ever get back to their historical numbers. 96-97 was probably the worst snow winter we have had for a
long time. That is out of the norm anymore. Given the winters we have had, with the exception
of 96-97, the deer AND the elk numbers should be increasing right along. I hiked a lot this past
season. Didn’t buy a tag because I quit giving the FWP my money four years ago. Took the
grandkids out. I saw 5 elk all season in areas where we used to see a lot of cows at least..Saw
lots of wolf tracks in almost every drainage.
The livestock folks have been after the elk numbers for years. They shouldn’t have to worry too
much anymore with the low wolf harvests that will be coming each year, (since they are getting
smarter).
By montanaeasy56 on 11-29-12 @ 12:17 pm
Another difference between you and I is that I have learned to take what the FWP reports out to the public with a grain of salt. You have no proof that the numbers they tell you from their
surveys are the truth. They can tell you “from their surveys” that elk polations were being
deplenished because of the youth hunt. They could also be telling the public that because they
relaize they have to do something to try and keep the populations somewhat stable because
there is another force out there having dramatic impacts on the elk herds. The wolf. So they
can tell the public that the numbers are declinging or hunter sucess is trending downwards and
continue to blame the youth hunt, bad winters, late green-ups..blah, blah..but they have a hard
time admitting that putting the wolf back onto the landscape was a huge mistake. They aren’t
going to continue to feed a predator that can only harvest elk 3 months a year and continue to
feed one that hunts 24/7 365 days a year. We have never had the elk numbers in Region 1 to
sustain such a situation. Even the FWP has admitted that to me. So be careful when they start
reporting that it because of hunters that they need to diminish opportunities for them. You have
no proof that their numbers are legit.
One other thing on the bill passed by the republicans. Do you really think that the legislators
putting pressure on the department to lower elk numbers REALLY applied to Region 1? There
has NEVER been any reason for the FWP to lower elk numbers. We have never had the
numbers that places like Reion 3 or Region 4, or the Breaks have. That is where the pressure
came from to reduce the elk herds. The numbers were way out of whack according the FWP’s
elk management plan. The ranchers used that Plan to force the republican idiots to push for
bigger harvests. Now that the wolf will be moving further east, they shouldn’t have that problem
much longer.
By fourweight on 11-29-12 @ 6:12 pm
MTEasy and like minders:It’s not a winning long term strategy to believe science you agree with, and deny science that you
doesn’t match up with your reading of scripture. Going back to the time of Copernicus, that sort of
small minded thinking has proven to be a huge loser.
Next, all creatures great and small are not here just to please us, or just for us to kill. If you really
want that atmosphere, were all is controlled….just go to TX, sit in a shooting house, and turn on
the feeder. If you miss, they will be held in by the high fence.
People who argue that there is not a place for the native predators, miss the point that by
managing all impediments away, we just become more like the fatguy in the shooting house.
That ain’t hunting or nature or anything like it, and there are many of us who want nothing
whatsoever to do with that. Wolves belong here in the same way elk do. Neither should dominate
but neither should have ever been exterminated. Thats the sort of approach that gets you to high
fences and corn feeders. no thanks.
I think it’s time that thinking people win out. It may have taken the Catholic church centuries to un-
deny the science of Galileo and Copernicus…..let’s not be that foolish.
By Mark W. on 11-29-12 @ 6:44 pm
It’s ironic that you buttress your argument that we believe in the science with the #1 historical example of a large institution with an agenda downplaying the apparent facts to support its
worldview.
By fourweight on 11-29-12 @ 8:57 pm
uhh….hello markw. Thats not irony, thats intentional. The catholic church is just like the right and tea party of today. “I like a few facts, but the ones I don’t…I just deny”
It did not work when the same bunch tried to deny the realities of the universe, it will not work
with climate change, and it sure does not work with denying FWP science.
By jimbo on 11-29-12 @ 8:59 pm
Fourweight???? WTH are you talking about.
Easy, I respect you for your opinions. But boy, how we see things differently. LOL. It doesn’t
matter where the livestock industry wanted to reduce elk numbers. Just doesn’t. The fact of
the matter is, hunters took part in a massive slaughter of game in R1, thanks to that bill, and
the youth hunt. They contributed to reducing elk numbers, period. I don’t know what to say
about you not believing the surveys. The surveys are done by volunteers, not by FWP folks. Why
would they lie?
Easy, they didn’t say elk numbers were being depleted by the youth hunt. They said they didn’t
want to stop it, it was hunters that wanted this slaughter to end. Call John Vore. Vore also
told me he was worried about the elk in the south fork, because of predators. He made no
excuses or anything. But this idea that they lie about everything is ridiculous. How would
that benefit them in the long run, for keeping their jobs? Don’t you see, you can’t have it
both ways. You don’t think they took a hit in revenue because of decreasing hunter success and
guys like you that “threw in the towel”? They didn’t want to stop that hunt, even you have to
believe that, just due to funding.
I mean, if you can’t believe in anything, then would you rather they disban FWP? Do you just
want a free for all out there? That is what it seems like. You might get your wish. When this
new legislative session comes around, just wait until they start in with Ranching for Wildlife.
Then all the private landowners will have control over everything, and FWP will be rendered
basically impotent, similar to Utah and CO. Who will you blame then?
I really don’t know where you are hunting, but this idea that wolves have killed all the elk is
bull. They sure have moved them around, pushed them into places harder to get to, but certainly
haven’t killed them all. If there are predators, there is game to hunt. They can’t survive on
mice and rabbits. They have played more heck with deer if you ask me. Then throw the pathetic
lion harvests we have had since the permit system and you have even more of a problem. The
study in the ‘root on the elk calves is also telling. Everyone down there was blaming wolves
for all the ills on earth, two years of this study has shown that lions are killing FAR MORE
calves than wolves. Oh, and don’t forget the fact that 5000 head of elk left the Bitteroot in
trucks in the 4 years following HB 42 passing. You have to look at this stuff objectively, and
quit blaming one creature. I mean, just because you can’t find an elk, doesn’t mean others
aren’t. I hunt R1 exclusively, and have never not filled by tags. Man has a huge effect.
Wolves weren’t around when they shot all the elk out of southfork in the 70s and early 80s, so
just hearing one dang bugle in the late eighties became quite a feat.
They say 80% of elk are killed by the same 10% of hunters every year. I wonder why that is?
By jimbo on 11-29-12 @ 9:38 pm
So what is the answer Easy? Seriously. Instead of saying, they’re liars, they suck, I quit.
What would you like to see done? How would you fix the problems as you see them?
By Mark W. on 11-29-12 @ 9:46 pm
Fourweight, you’ve got a guy saying “no, that’s not right” and you’ve got a huge organization with vested interests and livelihoods at stake saying “yes it is.”
Here’s a little help. The lone guy is Galileo. The organization is the Church. You may be right and
you may be wrong, but you need to work on your historical analogies.
By montanaeasy56 on 11-29-12 @ 11:45 pm
You see, to take a quote from one of the publican darlings, “there you go again.”. As long as people continue to take what the FWP tells you without any proof of what they are telling you,
then you are just driniking the kool-aid. I have had to many instances and caught biologists and
others within the FWP of just plain fabrication to sell their agenda. I personally don’t believe
hardly anything of what they say. What I have been seeing, amd many others, on the ground
just doesn’t add up with what they “say” they are getting back on the phone surveys. Just
because “volunteers” are doing the calling doesn’t mean that the department can’t manipulate
the data. It is done all the time within government agencies.
By Kokanee on 11-30-12 @ 1:08 am
Jimbo I agree with the meager predator harvest even before we were afraid for our hounds. Noweverything is askew people are grasping at anything they hear that has some modicum of sense. Do
you blame them ? I have very close friends in the yaak with substantial tracts that have
wintered herds of elk and a hundred or so deer now not so much.
How can anyone accept this as positive wildlife management? I can remember an article in the
spokesman review on the late hunt in darby and how fwp was lamenting the trouble with overtime
yada yada ya. That was before the brilliant idea of wolves to balance the park. I guess it just
boils down to the amont of food it takes to feed something a whole lot of people didnt really want.
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