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By fcb on 11-26-09
Too many wolves.
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By FightOrFlight on 11-26-09
Too many cars and trucks!
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By mitch on 11-26-09
Wayyyyyy too many hunters. Pathetic picture to show on this beautiful holiday.
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By 10 bears on 11-26-09
It is proven that logging operations increase the herds of deer and elk. The deer and elk start moving into logging operations almost the minute the loggers leave and start feeding on the high protien rich moss that grows in the trees branches. During the winters, this moss is the very food best deer and elk can get. Loggers have always worked the woods right thru the winters and have helped untold thousands of deer and elk survive. Logging also clears the forest and allows sunlight to reach the ground which in turn promotes grass growth. Deer and Elk eat grass not trees.
Lets have more loggers and less of MITCH.
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By hotfishmt on 11-26-09
Well…....from my observations…...it does not take much driving around to see ROAD KILL. I have seen more deer dead along side the roads, than in the back of pick-ups. Right in Evergreen next to McDonalds, in Columbia Falls near the cell phone store.
Each day I drive…....I see at least 2 road kill deer? Some were just a grease spot (rather blood spot).....after having been creamed beyond belief by many vehicles running over them.
The higher population, and more cars mean work for the body shops for sure. Sadly most road kill goes to waste…..in some states, people that kill deer with the family car/truck….are allowed to keep the deer (with permission) and that does provide some meat for the freezer.
Now if you happen to run across Bambie…...witht the family car and your deductable is more than you want to pay or can afford…....least allow some people to eat some part of the “road kill”.....legally.
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By watcher on 11-26-09
To many B tags are let out, plus doe season is too long.Wolves are big factor too.
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By dsrobins on 11-26-09
Virtually every myth about declining deer hunting season harvests are apparent in the above postings. The article was correct, the biggest factor in the decline was the long, cold and snowy winter last year. The baloney which is here in abuandance, is to blame the wolves, the careless drunken drivers who don’t even report their road kills, the false claim that clear cutting timber increases deer populations. If you want to see the results of clear cutting on deer, go over into the Cascades of Washington state which were nearly denuded of trees. Yes, the trees are growing back now, all at the same time, but the stands are too tight and too close together and there are virtually no deer there. The remarks by the scofflaw poacher are, of course, utterly offensive. One hopes someone reports him soon. Why are so many gun goon hunters so ignorant of reality?
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By Kokanee on 11-27-09
What I see and what I read seldom are the same. How much boot leather did you wear off tracking animals this year Mr.Robins. I remember fall of 97 my whole family got their animals it was tough but not too bad. Myth or not we have problems, Hard winter was not the problem it was crusted snow early spring they could not paw through it to get at new shoots on the southern slopes. Now winters are stressful enough let’s add another predator to the one’s that were already here. Warning to all you hunters out there you had better speak up for what you have left in the woods. All 80+ years of game management that was intended to insure future Montanan’s the right to hunt is being eaten up. It will crash even further without some type of stop to these wolves. Oh and Mr.Robins until you are competing with the wolf for your share of meat you do not have a thing to say about game management that’s reality. Manage for hunters not wolves.
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By Kokanee on 11-27-09
I should not have put Mr. onto robins I do not know who you are.
Although I see from your writing that you are a ignorant bigot. Your ignorance of hunting and how game management is funded is astounding . How will you pay for all that we supply in monies to this state. Your bigotry of your neighbors and your slandering never ceases how do we even get out of bed without your instructions on how to live. Your ignorance shows every time you try and justify your position on hunting. I do not believe every thing I am told by anybody till I see it myself our herds are in danger and that is truth.
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By dsrobins on 11-27-09
Actually, I don’t hunt with guns anymore. I used to hunt a lot when I was a kid growing up here in Montana. I loved hunting and did pretty well, despite the fact that my mom had to cook the deer, elk or antelope and tell my dad that it was pot roast before he would eat it. Obviously, he wasn’t a hunter. Later, I became an Army officer. Because I had grown up hunting, I was a pretty good shot and even got a sharpshooter’s badge with the .45 caliber pistol of the time; best used for throwing at ranges under 50 feet. While in Viet Nam, 1967-68, I also saw first hand what happened when human beings are on the receiving end of guns rather than the shooting ends. I haven’t hunted much since, except for a few pheasant shooting trips in the Milk River valley and a memorable wild boar hunting trip in Morocco in 1987 where some villagers asked us to help rid them of the boars that were tearing up their crop fields. My shotgun jammed during that hunt, but I finally got it to fire just before the 300+ pound boar ran me down. I missed him, but it scared him and he ran off. Now, I hunt with a camera. It’s a lot more fun; much less harmful and you have proof of it to remember.
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By FightOrFlight on 11-27-09
Well if you’re looking for boots on the ground evidence, I guess I am your man.
I track the Fortine pack just for fun on Sundays and days off. Both wolves and coyotes from Barnaby Lake to Olney have well traveled trails here.
I drive 93 and US 2 over 50 thousand miles a year, too. I hunt the same areas I drive, not as a road hunter, unless I smash one of those suicidal deer which jump out in front of cars like lightning.
My gut pile count of dead deer and elk is usually about a half to a dozen a day including one elk on my drives. On my hikes, rare to ever see a kill but I have.
So you can’t discount or write off road kills and part of the decline, if there is one.
DId any of you see the five and four point whities in yards in the middle of Whitefish eating up apples and gardens this fall?
They were pretty nice looking fellas!
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By woody on 11-27-09
the Montana FWP said at the end of last winter - you know around May - that this year would be a very bad hunting year as the winter deer die-off was the largest since 1996 winter….
just yeasterday I did see a beautiful 4x4 buck walking majectically thru my yard in the fog on the bank just above the river…..
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By Kokanee on 11-27-09
This link will answer some questions on what wolves are doing to our elk it was written by Tracy Ellig out of Bozeman on July 15th 2009.www.montana.edu/cpa/news/nwview.php?article=7324. This a paper written by university professor of ecology Scott Creel and two students at MSU that was then published in the proceedings of the national academy of sciences. There are many questions why this paper was not front page news for western papers. Such as this tidbit of information. Wolves have long since reached the numerical and distributional goals for recovery, but de-listing has not occurred and management options are limited. …
The federally funded budget for wolf monitoring and management has increased by 8% since 2005, while the MFWP budget for all big game monitoring, including but not limited to all of the ungulate species, has declined by 15% since 2006. Currently, the wolf program budget is approximately 2/3 the size of the budget for the big game program.
Now if that does not reek of a pet project, in the 35 yrs I have been hunting I have never felt so betrayed by the people we entrust to manage our big game herds and predators. How can I trust them to manage for the Hunter when they are allowing this amount depredation to our herds. This has got to stop.
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By FightOrFlight on 11-27-09
Are you saying the FWP did wolf recovery on its own “hunter” oriented mandates you suggest they are betraying said hunters by? Were they not forced to by an act of congress?
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By Kokanee on 11-27-09
Did you read my post not once did I say FWP did this on their own. They are a part of the problem and solution I know who mandated the re-introduction of wolves. This whole scenario was started by wolf advocates petitioning the Federal Govt. to bring wolves back from extinction in the lower 48 now there are red wolves in North Carolina and soon to be gray wolves in the adirondacks. This is in my opinion a plan to have a self sustaining eco-system that is balanced by prey and predator to eliminate the use of man to control game numbers therefore no hunting is needed. So either read my post or ignore it tearing it apart to pick a argument will be futile for you. For every argument you can conceive I will have facts to disprove you.
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By FightOrFlight on 11-27-09
Ok you win STFU.
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By Kokanee on 11-27-09
Fight or Flight what exactly do you mean ? What is STFU
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By Vud on 11-27-09
Kokanee:
Google it….I had too. Not impressed tho.
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By Kokanee on 11-27-09
OK. I apologize I came off a bit strong. That said there is no reason to put that into the comment page.. Just read the article in the link and then tell me what you think. It is hard to refute what is written.
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By Vud on 11-27-09
I will read it…but I don’t much mix it up here in the Hunter threads…and this has 2B my last post of the day. (Yay!)
BTW: It was FoF’s comment I wasn’t impressed with…kind of an odd concession of fact with a vicious twist.
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By Kokanee on 11-27-09
I saw that, my apology was too FoF I did not mean to make him mad and for that I apologized. Hope you had a great T-Day
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By FightOrFlight on 11-27-09
Kookienee, you just told me no words were match for you… so I quit. IF you want to win every post…. you can do it. My comments are life experiences and conclusions drawn from them.
So if you want to be on top, fine; just stop the insults. This is not rocket science, it is a community forum. There is no place for lions like you to eat the citizens. Burp!
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By Kokanee on 11-27-09
Again with tail tucked my apology and I like lion the best,it’s the other white meat.
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By FightOrFlight on 11-27-09
Can’t argue with a 5 point buck dead on US2 by GPI as we blog. 1PM Friday.
No wolf tracks or signs of starvation.
Think it might of been a car that killed it, but I could be wrong.
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By mitch on 11-27-09
I’m sure somehow the wolves were to blame….....or the environmentalists…......or Obama…......the democrats…...or those danged old hippies.
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By Kokanee on 11-27-09
I like old hippies voted democratic have been known to work with people to restore riparian habitat SOOOO if I had to pick one I would say a 1968 VW driven by an old hippie humming friend of the devil on his way to pick up his medical marijuana before he leaves for the enviro seminar on wolves with the guest speaker Barack Obama or maybe just a citizen on their way down the road.
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By watcher on 11-27-09
Lets just say dear populations did well in the past,but the last two years we are seeing big declines.What has been thriving the last couple of years in our wilderness? You got it WOLVES
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By watcher on 11-27-09
SORRY fingers went to fast Deer not Dear.
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By mitch on 11-27-09
Hey Kokanee, I think I know that old hippie.
Watcher wants to know what has been hitting the woods hard? How about all the new gun owners? Remember hearing recently that the country was going nuts on the gun buying. (let’s see, why was that now?, oh ya cause they thought they were going to get their guns taken away. ) So, that would be my guess, more guns being accompanied by people. More untrained, inexperienced guns with people attached. That would explain all the bear encounters this fall also. Careless and inexperienced.
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By Kokanee on 11-27-09
Well Mitch if the tie dye fits lol . Seriously do you believe the adage where there is smoke there is fire I do not think that anybody is coming for my guns but a little paranoia has saved me in the past…and what a great opportunity to buy stock in Remington. I do not know watcher, I do know some brown things that hit the earth hard though. That is just wrong isn’t it.
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By dmcclenahan on 11-27-09
Last year the rut didn’t seem to happen before the end of the season. It was a really wierd season—especially with 65* temps. We saw a LOT of does. The only bucks we saw were in residential areas. Fast forward to this year….we see even more does with yearlings….again, the bucks are in residential areas. My boss has been telling me about 3 that have been hanging out by her home—of course after I’ve spent the weekend trapsing around the woods from here to Plains to Thompson Falls and back through Marion and back to Kalispell. Oddly enough, since my husband and I have been driving to the Thomspon River drainage each weekend starting mid-September (grouse hunting) we haven’t seen much for road kill on Hwy 2. The low fawn survival isn’t only because of last winter (which is what NORMAL should be in NW Montana!). There’s more pressure on the deer from predators (wolves AND cats!). The deer feel safer around people. Today, my husband finally filled his tag—but it was in Plains near a logging site and within 1/2 mile of residential areas. And hopefully I get my turn tomorrow. I just hope hunting isn’t shut down completely for a year or two.
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By wendyo1 on 11-28-09
Glad to see not to see the Timber Wolves being blamed for evertthing for once. Yeh I’m a wolf person. Like my wild animals alive in the woods. Minding their own business.
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By Kokanee on 11-28-09
So glad you could join in just what we need around here.
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By mitch on 11-28-09
dmcclenahan, unfortunately the writing may be on the wall. Not because of those who hold offices in wash. d.c., and not because of the anti gun people, but thanks to the complete slobs such as the one in the big red truck who shot the deer yesterday at the intersection of Willow Glen and Conrad Dr.
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By wendyo1 on 11-28-09
Quick question Kokanee. Am I to read this as a general comment or sarcasm in all it’s glory!? Just wondering.
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By Kokanee on 11-28-09
General comment it is good to have differing opinions. It is how I learn. Like dmcclenahan mitch vud so on so forth they all have opinions on what they believe I may not agree but value the opportunity to see the other side of the coin mitch has said some profound things in other areas that made me think etc. So welcome
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By wendyo1 on 11-28-09
Having said that I am a wolf person, I also want to say I have done a lot of research on wolves and the many facets to wolf packs. Although I am not big on hunting, I realize that in some areas the hunting is done for the only reason I can understand hunting. If the deer, elk, etc. is hunted for food, and not merely for sport, that a whole other type of hunting.
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By Kokanee on 11-29-09
There is nothing wrong with your position but if everything was cut and dried we would not have anything to argue about. Personally do not think the way they brought wolves back was either biologically, ecologically or sociologically correct it pitted a lot of people and scientists against one another, the environment was not ready e.g. grizzlies were not thoroughly thought out and nobody saw how explosive the packs were going to grow and how detrimental they were going to be to the ungulate population. In the recovery plan there are provisions for pack removal if the ungulate population drops to the point that it interferes with human use yet nobody has done anything about it except to drop quotas for hunters in some areas. Hence a lot of hunters are bristling with anger and ready to kill all the wolves. So what have you accomplished you have made the wolf a target of persecution just so you can be happy about yourself. You have displaced in some areas the old apex predator (the grizz) and alienated some of your best allies, hunters!!
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By wendyo1 on 11-29-09
Kokanee, are there number kept of killed deer, elk, etc., by food hunters, “sport” hunters, and accidental kill?
The wolves that were reintroduced to the north west were done so in a carefully thought out manner. This was done because the Grey/Timber wolf had all but disappeared in the lower 48. They were mainly introduced to the Yellowstone areas at first, but unfornately wolves don’t see boundaries. As pups grow up some stay with the pack, but the males are kicked out to try find another pack, or if they are lucky start a new pack.
These animals are very family oriented and terratorial. They have a very developed heirarchy, and fair very well when left to their own devises. The BLM has taken it upon itself, to kill on site, and not bother to check wherther they are females with pups, (which they couldn’t know). If they kill off half an Alpha pair, they quite often leave a whole pack leaderless.
The aerial shooting by the FWD is absolutely the most barbaric method of killing wolves, and also the most abhorent method of killing a wolf. You chase it till it tires and either shoot it from the air, or if it’s still alive you go up to it and kill it.
The indiscrimate killing of wolves by hunters, or the government should be put aside until they can find a way to keep the wolves being studied for they traveling areas, and ones that are doing damage in some way.
The fact that there are so many deer killed by cars should be looked into. There has to be a reason that someone can come up with. Any thoughts?
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By FightOrFlight on 11-29-09
Researchers have recovered 70 million-year-old soft tissue, including what may be blood vessels and cells, from a Tyrannosaurus rex.
Since TRex is officially extinct, if one gets cloned, how long before they are reintroduced into the ecosystem?
Can you imagine hunting TREX by helicopter?
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By Vud on 11-29-09
fcb:
Hmm…yeah…Sitting on your TREX deck barbecueing T-Rex and swilling L’Ecole No. 41 ?
I’ll bet those numbers of Road-kill Vs. Hunting Vs. Predator-kill are out there…but a source that both sides would accept would be a problem.
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By redhawk on 11-29-09
Reintroducing wolves into grizzly habitat, what a concept. One interesting fact is that wolves can and do eat baby bears. They taste like pork…Will the wolves be prosecuted for eating an endangered species?!
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By Kokanee on 11-29-09
Sounds like my Sunday Vud instead of L’Ecole it will Flying Trout and Barbecued spareribs with spaghetti squash and spinach salad with herbed goat cheese and toasted walnuts.
Wendy yes there have been wolves in and out of northern Montana,Idaho, and Washington forever and they would have dispersed naturally with the help of hunters ranchers and pro wolf advocates. Trying to fill in huge ecological gaps with an apex predator all at once has had IMO unintended detrimental consequences. As far as deer counts vs. cars you might be able to contact an insurance agent all the rest you will be able to glean from FWP in Helena Help line.
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By Vud on 11-29-09
For what it’s worth:
What are the most influential factors in deer population dynamics?
I gave up meat and most dairy foods 3 months ago (!)...so I’m left with what passes for steak-for me-these days…portabello mushrooms with potatoes.
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By Kokanee on 11-29-09
That website is all about covering the bases !! truth be known I would say that there is just too much territory for our understaffed overworked and generally under funded FWP. Many long discussions over spring counts with some of our biologists lack of air time forest cover and such hinder their ability to accurately give good numbers year to year. They do the best they can the only thing I wished they would do is trust some of the people that make their living in the woods. The eyes and ears of some loggers and outfitters are far superior to some of that cached data that they use sometimes.
No carbs No sugars in order to eat like this on sunday its three miles a day just meat, cheese and eggs the rest of the week. That is why I like the advantage of lean meats, game animals are the best.
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Comments on: Deer Harvest Numbers Teetering Near Record Lows
Let’s be civil. The Flathead Beacon encourages vigorous discussion and lively debate, but we will delete comments that attack other readers, make accusations we can’t verify, stray too far off topic, criticize local businesses (call them if you have a problem), convict someone of a crime, use profanity or are simply judged to be in bad taste. We don’t always have someone moderating comments, so we ask for your help: If you see a comment that violates these ground rules, or you simply deem it offensive, please e-mail editor [at] flatheadbeacon.com. The views expressed in the comments section do not reflect those of the Beacon.
By fcb on 11-26-09
Too many wolves.
By FightOrFlight on 11-26-09
Too many cars and trucks!
By mitch on 11-26-09
Wayyyyyy too many hunters. Pathetic picture to show on this beautiful holiday.
By 10 bears on 11-26-09
It is proven that logging operations increase the herds of deer and elk. The deer and elk start moving into logging operations almost the minute the loggers leave and start feeding on the high protien rich moss that grows in the trees branches. During the winters, this moss is the very food best deer and elk can get. Loggers have always worked the woods right thru the winters and have helped untold thousands of deer and elk survive. Logging also clears the forest and allows sunlight to reach the ground which in turn promotes grass growth. Deer and Elk eat grass not trees.
Lets have more loggers and less of MITCH.
By hotfishmt on 11-26-09
Well…....from my observations…...it does not take much driving around to see ROAD KILL. I have seen more deer dead along side the roads, than in the back of pick-ups. Right in Evergreen next to McDonalds, in Columbia Falls near the cell phone store.
Each day I drive…....I see at least 2 road kill deer? Some were just a grease spot (rather blood spot).....after having been creamed beyond belief by many vehicles running over them.
The higher population, and more cars mean work for the body shops for sure. Sadly most road kill goes to waste…..in some states, people that kill deer with the family car/truck….are allowed to keep the deer (with permission) and that does provide some meat for the freezer.
Now if you happen to run across Bambie…...witht the family car and your deductable is more than you want to pay or can afford…....least allow some people to eat some part of the “road kill”.....legally.
By watcher on 11-26-09
To many B tags are let out, plus doe season is too long.Wolves are big factor too.
By dsrobins on 11-26-09
Virtually every myth about declining deer hunting season harvests are apparent in the above postings. The article was correct, the biggest factor in the decline was the long, cold and snowy winter last year. The baloney which is here in abuandance, is to blame the wolves, the careless drunken drivers who don’t even report their road kills, the false claim that clear cutting timber increases deer populations. If you want to see the results of clear cutting on deer, go over into the Cascades of Washington state which were nearly denuded of trees. Yes, the trees are growing back now, all at the same time, but the stands are too tight and too close together and there are virtually no deer there. The remarks by the scofflaw poacher are, of course, utterly offensive. One hopes someone reports him soon. Why are so many gun goon hunters so ignorant of reality?
By Kokanee on 11-27-09
What I see and what I read seldom are the same. How much boot leather did you wear off tracking animals this year Mr.Robins. I remember fall of 97 my whole family got their animals it was tough but not too bad. Myth or not we have problems, Hard winter was not the problem it was crusted snow early spring they could not paw through it to get at new shoots on the southern slopes. Now winters are stressful enough let’s add another predator to the one’s that were already here. Warning to all you hunters out there you had better speak up for what you have left in the woods. All 80+ years of game management that was intended to insure future Montanan’s the right to hunt is being eaten up. It will crash even further without some type of stop to these wolves. Oh and Mr.Robins until you are competing with the wolf for your share of meat you do not have a thing to say about game management that’s reality. Manage for hunters not wolves.
By Kokanee on 11-27-09
I should not have put Mr. onto robins I do not know who you are.
Although I see from your writing that you are a ignorant bigot. Your ignorance of hunting and how game management is funded is astounding . How will you pay for all that we supply in monies to this state. Your bigotry of your neighbors and your slandering never ceases how do we even get out of bed without your instructions on how to live. Your ignorance shows every time you try and justify your position on hunting. I do not believe every thing I am told by anybody till I see it myself our herds are in danger and that is truth.
By dsrobins on 11-27-09
Actually, I don’t hunt with guns anymore. I used to hunt a lot when I was a kid growing up here in Montana. I loved hunting and did pretty well, despite the fact that my mom had to cook the deer, elk or antelope and tell my dad that it was pot roast before he would eat it. Obviously, he wasn’t a hunter. Later, I became an Army officer. Because I had grown up hunting, I was a pretty good shot and even got a sharpshooter’s badge with the .45 caliber pistol of the time; best used for throwing at ranges under 50 feet. While in Viet Nam, 1967-68, I also saw first hand what happened when human beings are on the receiving end of guns rather than the shooting ends. I haven’t hunted much since, except for a few pheasant shooting trips in the Milk River valley and a memorable wild boar hunting trip in Morocco in 1987 where some villagers asked us to help rid them of the boars that were tearing up their crop fields. My shotgun jammed during that hunt, but I finally got it to fire just before the 300+ pound boar ran me down. I missed him, but it scared him and he ran off. Now, I hunt with a camera. It’s a lot more fun; much less harmful and you have proof of it to remember.
By FightOrFlight on 11-27-09
Well if you’re looking for boots on the ground evidence, I guess I am your man.
I track the Fortine pack just for fun on Sundays and days off. Both wolves and coyotes from Barnaby Lake to Olney have well traveled trails here.
I drive 93 and US 2 over 50 thousand miles a year, too. I hunt the same areas I drive, not as a road hunter, unless I smash one of those suicidal deer which jump out in front of cars like lightning.
My gut pile count of dead deer and elk is usually about a half to a dozen a day including one elk on my drives. On my hikes, rare to ever see a kill but I have.
So you can’t discount or write off road kills and part of the decline, if there is one.
DId any of you see the five and four point whities in yards in the middle of Whitefish eating up apples and gardens this fall?
They were pretty nice looking fellas!
By woody on 11-27-09
the Montana FWP said at the end of last winter - you know around May - that this year would be a very bad hunting year as the winter deer die-off was the largest since 1996 winter….
just yeasterday I did see a beautiful 4x4 buck walking majectically thru my yard in the fog on the bank just above the river…..
By Kokanee on 11-27-09
This link will answer some questions on what wolves are doing to our elk it was written by Tracy Ellig out of Bozeman on July 15th 2009.www.montana.edu/cpa/news/nwview.php?article=7324. This a paper written by university professor of ecology Scott Creel and two students at MSU that was then published in the proceedings of the national academy of sciences. There are many questions why this paper was not front page news for western papers. Such as this tidbit of information. Wolves have long since reached the numerical and distributional goals for recovery, but de-listing has not occurred and management options are limited. …
The federally funded budget for wolf monitoring and management has increased by 8% since 2005, while the MFWP budget for all big game monitoring, including but not limited to all of the ungulate species, has declined by 15% since 2006. Currently, the wolf program budget is approximately 2/3 the size of the budget for the big game program.
Now if that does not reek of a pet project, in the 35 yrs I have been hunting I have never felt so betrayed by the people we entrust to manage our big game herds and predators. How can I trust them to manage for the Hunter when they are allowing this amount depredation to our herds. This has got to stop.
By FightOrFlight on 11-27-09
Are you saying the FWP did wolf recovery on its own “hunter” oriented mandates you suggest they are betraying said hunters by? Were they not forced to by an act of congress?
By Kokanee on 11-27-09
Did you read my post not once did I say FWP did this on their own. They are a part of the problem and solution I know who mandated the re-introduction of wolves. This whole scenario was started by wolf advocates petitioning the Federal Govt. to bring wolves back from extinction in the lower 48 now there are red wolves in North Carolina and soon to be gray wolves in the adirondacks. This is in my opinion a plan to have a self sustaining eco-system that is balanced by prey and predator to eliminate the use of man to control game numbers therefore no hunting is needed. So either read my post or ignore it tearing it apart to pick a argument will be futile for you. For every argument you can conceive I will have facts to disprove you.
By FightOrFlight on 11-27-09
Ok you win STFU.
By Kokanee on 11-27-09
Fight or Flight what exactly do you mean ? What is STFU
By Vud on 11-27-09
Kokanee:
Google it….I had too. Not impressed tho.
By Kokanee on 11-27-09
OK. I apologize I came off a bit strong. That said there is no reason to put that into the comment page.. Just read the article in the link and then tell me what you think. It is hard to refute what is written.
By Vud on 11-27-09
I will read it…but I don’t much mix it up here in the Hunter threads…and this has 2B my last post of the day. (Yay!)
BTW: It was FoF’s comment I wasn’t impressed with…kind of an odd concession of fact with a vicious twist.
By Kokanee on 11-27-09
I saw that, my apology was too FoF I did not mean to make him mad and for that I apologized. Hope you had a great T-Day
By FightOrFlight on 11-27-09
Kookienee, you just told me no words were match for you… so I quit. IF you want to win every post…. you can do it. My comments are life experiences and conclusions drawn from them.
So if you want to be on top, fine; just stop the insults. This is not rocket science, it is a community forum. There is no place for lions like you to eat the citizens. Burp!
By Kokanee on 11-27-09
Again with tail tucked my apology and I like lion the best,it’s the other white meat.
By FightOrFlight on 11-27-09
Can’t argue with a 5 point buck dead on US2 by GPI as we blog. 1PM Friday.
No wolf tracks or signs of starvation.
Think it might of been a car that killed it, but I could be wrong.
By mitch on 11-27-09
I’m sure somehow the wolves were to blame….....or the environmentalists…......or Obama…......the democrats…...or those danged old hippies.
By Kokanee on 11-27-09
I like old hippies voted democratic have been known to work with people to restore riparian habitat SOOOO if I had to pick one I would say a 1968 VW driven by an old hippie humming friend of the devil on his way to pick up his medical marijuana before he leaves for the enviro seminar on wolves with the guest speaker Barack Obama or maybe just a citizen on their way down the road.
By watcher on 11-27-09
Lets just say dear populations did well in the past,but the last two years we are seeing big declines.What has been thriving the last couple of years in our wilderness? You got it WOLVES
By watcher on 11-27-09
SORRY fingers went to fast Deer not Dear.
By mitch on 11-27-09
Watcher wants to know what has been hitting the woods hard? How about all the new gun owners? Remember hearing recently that the country was going nuts on the gun buying. (let’s see, why was that now?, oh ya cause they thought they were going to get their guns taken away. ) So, that would be my guess, more guns being accompanied by people. More untrained, inexperienced guns with people attached. That would explain all the bear encounters this fall also. Careless and inexperienced.
By Kokanee on 11-27-09
Well Mitch if the tie dye fits lol . Seriously do you believe the adage where there is smoke there is fire I do not think that anybody is coming for my guns but a little paranoia has saved me in the past…and what a great opportunity to buy stock in Remington. I do not know watcher, I do know some brown things that hit the earth hard though. That is just wrong isn’t it.
By dmcclenahan on 11-27-09
Last year the rut didn’t seem to happen before the end of the season. It was a really wierd season—especially with 65* temps. We saw a LOT of does. The only bucks we saw were in residential areas. Fast forward to this year….we see even more does with yearlings….again, the bucks are in residential areas. My boss has been telling me about 3 that have been hanging out by her home—of course after I’ve spent the weekend trapsing around the woods from here to Plains to Thompson Falls and back through Marion and back to Kalispell. Oddly enough, since my husband and I have been driving to the Thomspon River drainage each weekend starting mid-September (grouse hunting) we haven’t seen much for road kill on Hwy 2. The low fawn survival isn’t only because of last winter (which is what NORMAL should be in NW Montana!). There’s more pressure on the deer from predators (wolves AND cats!). The deer feel safer around people. Today, my husband finally filled his tag—but it was in Plains near a logging site and within 1/2 mile of residential areas. And hopefully I get my turn tomorrow. I just hope hunting isn’t shut down completely for a year or two.
By wendyo1 on 11-28-09
Glad to see not to see the Timber Wolves being blamed for evertthing for once. Yeh I’m a wolf person. Like my wild animals alive in the woods. Minding their own business.
By Kokanee on 11-28-09
So glad you could join in just what we need around here.
By mitch on 11-28-09
dmcclenahan, unfortunately the writing may be on the wall. Not because of those who hold offices in wash. d.c., and not because of the anti gun people, but thanks to the complete slobs such as the one in the big red truck who shot the deer yesterday at the intersection of Willow Glen and Conrad Dr.
By wendyo1 on 11-28-09
Quick question Kokanee. Am I to read this as a general comment or sarcasm in all it’s glory!? Just wondering.
By Kokanee on 11-28-09
General comment it is good to have differing opinions. It is how I learn. Like dmcclenahan mitch vud so on so forth they all have opinions on what they believe I may not agree but value the opportunity to see the other side of the coin mitch has said some profound things in other areas that made me think etc. So welcome
By wendyo1 on 11-28-09
Having said that I am a wolf person, I also want to say I have done a lot of research on wolves and the many facets to wolf packs. Although I am not big on hunting, I realize that in some areas the hunting is done for the only reason I can understand hunting. If the deer, elk, etc. is hunted for food, and not merely for sport, that a whole other type of hunting.
By Kokanee on 11-29-09
There is nothing wrong with your position but if everything was cut and dried we would not have anything to argue about. Personally do not think the way they brought wolves back was either biologically, ecologically or sociologically correct it pitted a lot of people and scientists against one another, the environment was not ready e.g. grizzlies were not thoroughly thought out and nobody saw how explosive the packs were going to grow and how detrimental they were going to be to the ungulate population. In the recovery plan there are provisions for pack removal if the ungulate population drops to the point that it interferes with human use yet nobody has done anything about it except to drop quotas for hunters in some areas. Hence a lot of hunters are bristling with anger and ready to kill all the wolves. So what have you accomplished you have made the wolf a target of persecution just so you can be happy about yourself. You have displaced in some areas the old apex predator (the grizz) and alienated some of your best allies, hunters!!
By wendyo1 on 11-29-09
Kokanee, are there number kept of killed deer, elk, etc., by food hunters, “sport” hunters, and accidental kill?
The wolves that were reintroduced to the north west were done so in a carefully thought out manner. This was done because the Grey/Timber wolf had all but disappeared in the lower 48. They were mainly introduced to the Yellowstone areas at first, but unfornately wolves don’t see boundaries. As pups grow up some stay with the pack, but the males are kicked out to try find another pack, or if they are lucky start a new pack.
These animals are very family oriented and terratorial. They have a very developed heirarchy, and fair very well when left to their own devises. The BLM has taken it upon itself, to kill on site, and not bother to check wherther they are females with pups, (which they couldn’t know). If they kill off half an Alpha pair, they quite often leave a whole pack leaderless.
The aerial shooting by the FWD is absolutely the most barbaric method of killing wolves, and also the most abhorent method of killing a wolf. You chase it till it tires and either shoot it from the air, or if it’s still alive you go up to it and kill it.
The indiscrimate killing of wolves by hunters, or the government should be put aside until they can find a way to keep the wolves being studied for they traveling areas, and ones that are doing damage in some way.
The fact that there are so many deer killed by cars should be looked into. There has to be a reason that someone can come up with. Any thoughts?
By FightOrFlight on 11-29-09
Researchers have recovered 70 million-year-old soft tissue, including what may be blood vessels and cells, from a Tyrannosaurus rex.
From the story at:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7285683/
Surely this will lead to cloning.
Since TRex is officially extinct, if one gets cloned, how long before they are reintroduced into the ecosystem?
Can you imagine hunting TREX by helicopter?
By Vud on 11-29-09
fcb:
Hmm…yeah…Sitting on your TREX deck barbecueing T-Rex and swilling L’Ecole No. 41 ?
I’ll bet those numbers of Road-kill Vs. Hunting Vs. Predator-kill are out there…but a source that both sides would accept would be a problem.
By redhawk on 11-29-09
Reintroducing wolves into grizzly habitat, what a concept. One interesting fact is that wolves can and do eat baby bears. They taste like pork…Will the wolves be prosecuted for eating an endangered species?!
By Kokanee on 11-29-09
Sounds like my Sunday Vud instead of L’Ecole it will Flying Trout and Barbecued spareribs with spaghetti squash and spinach salad with herbed goat cheese and toasted walnuts.
Wendy yes there have been wolves in and out of northern Montana,Idaho, and Washington forever and they would have dispersed naturally with the help of hunters ranchers and pro wolf advocates. Trying to fill in huge ecological gaps with an apex predator all at once has had IMO unintended detrimental consequences. As far as deer counts vs. cars you might be able to contact an insurance agent all the rest you will be able to glean from FWP in Helena Help line.
By Vud on 11-29-09
For what it’s worth:
What are the most influential factors in deer population dynamics?
http://fwp.mt.gov/hunting/ahm/qanda.html#10
Koke: You eat good.
I gave up meat and most dairy foods 3 months ago (!)...so I’m left with what passes for steak-for me-these days…portabello mushrooms with potatoes.
By Kokanee on 11-29-09
That website is all about covering the bases !! truth be known I would say that there is just too much territory for our understaffed overworked and generally under funded FWP. Many long discussions over spring counts with some of our biologists lack of air time forest cover and such hinder their ability to accurately give good numbers year to year. They do the best they can the only thing I wished they would do is trust some of the people that make their living in the woods. The eyes and ears of some loggers and outfitters are far superior to some of that cached data that they use sometimes.
No carbs No sugars in order to eat like this on sunday its three miles a day just meat, cheese and eggs the rest of the week. That is why I like the advantage of lean meats, game animals are the best.