Tired but true? :

“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury.”

“From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.”

A congressman or senator has two jobs, really.  One is to vote in such a way as to provide for his/her constituents’ needs (and I guess to a lesser extent their desires.)  The other job though, is to act for the good of the nation, even if occasionally that might act against some of the needs or desires of the folks back home. 

I say that believing it is true, but also with the belief that there is not one single member of congress who does both parts of the job, and many who do neither part.  Instead, we have 535 individuals whose primary goal is reelection, or at best, to be followed by someone of the same party and at worst, to act in the interests of those who provide them financing and various kinds of largesse.

Being a legislator is a complex job with a high learning curve.  Accordingly, I do not believe term limits is the answer.  Instead, I have come to believe that we need a constitutional amendment with the goal of completely doing away with lobbyists and providing for election campaigns financed 100% with public funds.  This would, of course, require a limitation of free speech (or at least free speech as it has been defined by the Supreme Court.)

Also, Vud:  could you supply a cite for your quotation?

Mr. Testa, I’m really coming to enjoy your analysis pieces. Thoughtful, fair, full of information, and leaving your readers to draw our own conclusions. Keep up the good work.

TeeAitch:

I agree the good of a constituency and the good of the nation can be a tough balance to perfect.

But, it does strike me as disingenuous when the two conflict as in the case of this article and as illustrated in the quote:

“While I am proud to have included these Montana projects, I could not vote in favor of legislation that put runaway spending ahead of fiscal discipline,” Rehberg said.”

...and the difference is explained as:  “a common voting practice “.  (common practice…as in intitutionalized.)

Another interesting variant of the original quote:

“The American Republic will endure until politicians realize they can bribe the people with their own money.”

As to citation…it gets a bit murky…

http://www.lorencollins.net/tytler.html

There is no doubt that Denny Rehberg richly deserves the honorific title of hypocrite that the Democrats have so aptly bestowed upon him.  The best recent example is to recall that…to his credit… Denny was the only member of our Montana Congressional delegation to actually hold some town hall meetings during the August recess.  He at least went through the motions of soliciting local opinions until his efforts came to a crashing end on some rocks near Bigfork late in the month.  Neither Max Baucus nor Jon Tester deigned to hold such meetings although perhaps they can be excused knowing that they would have faced hostile crowds of birthers, neo-cons and well coached allies of the health insurance and pharmaceutical industries.  Having held his meetings, Rehberg nevertheless felt it suddenly urgent to call for an “emergency” health care town hall session after the House of Representatives bill was formally announced.  Have Montanans opinions of health care reform changed so dramatically in the scant two months that have passed since Denny’s last round?  Perhaps they have, given the sudden popular demand that a public option be included as shown in numerous nationwide polls.  Could it be that the real “emergency” that so concerns Denny and his fellow Republicans is that such a reform bill might actually be passed?  Let us hope so, but don’t expect Denny and his buddies to help.

This is really simple. We don’t have to look very far to find “shining” examples of liberal policies and their effect on local economies. For example, lets take universal coverage in Massachusetts which by the way has been touted as a great example of why we should have universal coverage for every U.S. citizen:

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2009/03/02/mass_healthcare_reform_is_failing_us/

Then we have Oregon rationing care:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/m7316484119x715t/


Then we have California, the bright star of liberal social programs and environmental policies(the whole state pretty much starts on fire every summer by the way )

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124692354575702881.html

Then we have the republicans on the other side who completely blew it when they had control of congress:

http://www.cato.org/event.php?eventid=2433

And lets not even begin to talk about the Iraq war and how many trillions that will cost us.

In this day and age, you really have to be misinformed or even ignorant to be an ideologue for either party.

Do I think Denny is a hypocrite? Yup! Do I think his democratic buddies are hypocrites? Yup!

Time to vote in some new blood, I don’t care how big the learning curve is. The folks we have in office now have been there for a very long time and what have they shown us?

listen to mooseberry talk about health care being unconstitutional is pushing the limits on hypocrisy -  what part of the bush years did you miss?  all of it i suppose!

rehberg voted for the unconstitutional fisa bill…....

voted to keep the troops in iraq AFTER he found out bush lied about the reasons for the war…..

voted no to end corporate welfare to the tune of billions of dollars for the oil companies-  as if they don’t have enough already….....

voted no to end the error that allowed oil companies to pay ZERO for the oil they drilled on public lands….another corporate welfare vote…...

voted no to allow the fed gov to negotiate w/ drug companies for better prices…...result -  bankrupting medicare and more corporate welfare…....

voted no on increasing the minimum wage - even though it is at a 50 year low…...a vote for the continued trickle-down economics that have bankrupted the country…...

voted yes for tax cuts for the wealthy while voting yes to raise the taxes on the lower and middle class…...

voted yes to cut off student scholarship and loan programs…....

voted no on a law to codify that torture is illegal….basically voted for allowing torture…...

tax breaks for the oil companies round 2 -  voted yes!  - another corporate welfare vote…..

voted yes for the terry schivo law that would have taken the power away from families to decide end of life care nad turn it over to a gov or corporate bureaucracy…...

voted yes to loosen up the conflict of interest laws….....

voted no on a mandatory rest period between deployments to war zones…...anyone seen the latest suicide stats on soldiers facing multiple deployments…..now that is a crime against humanity…...

voted against renewal energy tax credits…....but votes for tax breaks for big oil…....

voted no on food safety,

no on cash for clunkers, 

no on allowing bankruptcy judges the right to renegotiate mortgage loans….that’s only ok for business not citizens according to rehberg….

voted no on equal wages for women…....

voted no on having backup paper ballots…....

voted no on campaign reform…..can’t stop that money coming in!

voted no on hate crimes legislation…...i guess matthew shepard deserved what he got….at least rehberg voted that way!

voted for privatizing the military and the prisons…..

and the list goes on and on…....

and talk about flip flopping….short of corporate welfare votes - which are yes yes yes every time…..the guy votes one way then a week later votes the other way….....

and he has voted against the afganistan war BUT for the iraq war…..What a genius…...then again afgan doesn’t have the oil that iraq has…....

voted no on ending commodities market manipulation and speculation….also known as casino banking…...

has voted no on every environmental bill and has voted yes on every bill to give MORE power and tax breaks to the oil companies….

voted no on alternative energy…..

voted against food safety regulations…...

voted no on energy tax credits for individual home owners…..

voted no on the whistleblower protection act-

voted to increase the provisions of the gI BIll…...so he votes against helping the GI’s once they return to the states BUT votes for extended deployments…....

voted for all tax breaks for companies to outsource jobs and votes yes on all free trade agreements…...

voted against housing foreclosure assistance programs….

voted against every womens issues there were…...

Chairman of the Department of Economics at George Mason University: Politicians Are NOT Prostitutes … They Are Pimps

Washington’s Blog
Sunday, Nov 1st, 2009

“Yet Americans continue to imagine that the typical representative or senator is an upstanding citizen, a human being worthy of being feted and listened to as if he or she possesses some unusually high moral or intellectual stature.

It’s closer to the truth to see politicians as pimps who force ordinary men and women to pony up freedoms and assets for the benefit of clients we call “special-interest groups “

Ya know Woody I get tired of the class warfare so let me educate you on WHO pays taxes around here:

http://www.ntu.org/main/page.php?PageID=6

As you can see, the top 1% pay 40% of the American tax bill. Some of us fall into the Top 10% and guess what, the top 10 % of wage earners pays 71% of the taxes in this country which is absolutely nuts. The bottom 50% of wage earners pay 2 percent of the tax bill.

The tax cuts were targeted at the top 10% because as it stands right now, 50% of THEIR income is paid in taxes which means they spend 6 months out of the year working for the government. Please quit with the class warfare ignorance. By the way, those top 50% of wage earners employ a lot of Americans through small businesses and those “rich people” are actually Sub S corps who don’t see anything close to 6 figures in take home income.

Scott:  Sorry, but when someone uses incorrect statistics or provides incomplete data to try to prove a point, their argument falls flat with me.  While the data you cite is more or less accurate as of 2002 (you rounded up quite a bit, i.e. that 40% for the top 1% was actually 33.7%) it only applies to FEDERAL INCOME tax.  I don’t know about you, but my federal income taxes make up only a minor portion of my annual tax bill.  I’m pretty solidly middle-class income wise, usually earning at or close to the national median household income.  I pay far more in other taxes than I do in income taxes. 

I’m in a position to see tax returns from numerous people, and the majority of them pay fairly low federal income tax, but pay a great deal more in state taxes, property tax, excise taxes, and various add-on taxes and fees.  Those who make more should pay more, but stop with the whining.

Another eye-opening report from our favorite government entity.
(37 Pgs. for the Not-So-Faint-Of-Heart) 

Comparison of the Reported Tax Liabilities of Foreign- and U.S.-Controlled Corporations,
1998-2005

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d08957.pdf

TeeAitch,

The statistics are accurate here is another source:

http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/22652.html

The statistics are a a measurement of who is providing income to the nation. It is NOT an illustration of what the federal income tax brackets are at this time. Please look a little more closely next time before you reply.

@TeeAitch:  if you would bother to look at the link, the data Scott was quoting was for 2007, NOT 2002.  Try viewing the page before commenting on it next time.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4822723

go see larry beinhart talk about the rich and their tax breaks….

when a society gives ALL the gains from economic growth to one segment of society that is class warfare…...and in terms of wages adjusted for inflation the rich have made off like bandits and the average Americans wager has fallen over the last 30 years….....

just take the forbes richest 100 and see what the wealth was worth in 1981 and look now -  it’s about 500% increase -  while the “normal american” has seen a decrease in real wages over that same period…..
plus the wealthy ONLY talk about the income tax…....add in all the other taxes we pay - which for the most part are flat taxes…..

and most rich people make their money not from wages but from investments - taxed at a top rate of 15%!

1. -  FICA -  currently running a surplus…and that surplus is put into the general fund…..we only pay taxes on FICA on the 1st 106,800 -  after that you pay ZERO to FICA  

so make a million a year and you pay less than 1%——there’s a 6.5% tax break….

make 10k a year and you get the whole 7.65% tax - given right to the general fund…..

2. make more than 300,000 and you get to double the amount of charitable contributions you can deduct…...

3. gas tax -  the rich have the company pay for their transportation and get to deduct it ....the rest of us pay the tax w/ no benefits…..

4. sales tax - montana may not have one but the rest of the nation does…..and the tax rate paid by the poor is much higher than the wealthy

5. add in off-shoring companies to the camens or the UAE like halliburton…they pay ZERO for the income made in iraq!

6. car registration taxes, health care insurance -  buy it individually and you personally can’t deduct it -  but the company can…..

and on and on it goes….. the poor and middle class pay a much higher tax rate than the wealthy….

even warren buffet said that - and he was only talking about the income tax rates -  which by the way are 15% for the truly wealthy - while the rest of us pay around 28% or more

historically corporations used to pay around 35% of the total revenue of the federal government   -  it is around 7% now…..


and the rich use WAY MORE of the commons -  which we all pay for….and still the rich argue they are over-taxed…...

go to somolia you freeloaders

THE RICH ARE VAMPIRES!

THEY CREATE NOTHING OF VALUE….

the ntu.org -  national taxpayers union is a rightwingnut organization led by grover nordquist -  the same guy who was a major adviser to reagan

this is the guy who famously said he wanted to bankrupt the federal government so then they couldn’t stand up to the power of the multi-national corporations and the very wealthy

he also said he didn’t want to kill the federal gov -  just get it down to the size where he could drown it in the bathtub

pretty successful for a traitor!

Woody,

Their data source is the IRS…are they “wingnuts” too?

“Washington, DC, October 4, 2007 - New data released by the IRS today offers interesting insights into the distributional spread of the federal income tax burden”

Guys like Woody will never be convinced even when presented with data from multiple sources who draw their data from the IRS. Going forward I am going to ignore this guy as he believes that the “rich people” are ripping off the country and they are the root of all evil. You simply can’t have a valid debate with somebody who tries to push a viewpoint that makes generalizations like that.

For those that are interested, here is the data from the IRS which matches what I posted from the other two sites:

http://www.irs.gov/taxstats/indtaxstats/article/0,,id=133521,00.html#_grp2

Plenty of data in excel format.

m.b.

Substitute ‘Denny’ for ‘Woody’ and I’ll agree.

Let’s look at some numbers concerning the fate of the rich folks in this country, and how much richer these folks have gotten from the Reagan administration on:

In the late 1890’s, JP Morgan - the ‘bankers banker’ at the time and one of the wealthiest folks in America - had a personal wealth that was about 20 times the wealth of the average American citizen.  After the ‘Reagan De-regulatory Revolution’, U.S. CEO’s earned 140 times the average worker’s pay.  In 2007, near the end of the ‘Bush Revolution’, the average S&P 500 CEO earned in 3 hours what a minimum wage worker made in an entire year.

Sure doesn’t look like “high taxes” drug these folks down too much ...

All Big Money America wants is the government out of their way so they continue to mine this country and us for all it can get.  They don’t want taxes.  They don’t want to be regulated in any way.  The Republicans in congress from the Reagan administration on, like Denny Rehberg, are only working the GOP playbook for the benefit of corporate America ... it’s plain and simple.  Don’t think for one second that they give a damn about us other than getting our vote.  They’ll never get mine.

All of you need to take the time to watch this informative and REALLY SCARY documentary:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VebOTc-7shU

CJ :  I watched this last week .  Really SCARY indeed !

Some BS .  Some truth.

Bottom line you, me and 99% of the people in this country are totally UNwilling to go through the pain of changing a system thats largely an entity built on human nature.

FEAR of what we might to lose in the process of that change means we’ve already lost.

Buck up.  It’s happened before, it will happen again.  We’re just not that special when considering the whole of human history.

We don’t need to change it Vud. We just need to pull our support from them. And support ourselves.

I like the sounds of that idea Billy !

...OK.

I still don’t think you realize even YOU are NOT willing to SUFFER the consequences of what you suggest.

...it’s easier, easier said than done…

We need some one with brains to tell us which leeches to scrape off first.

Vud : what do you foresee these consequences being ?

Already into that reality Vud. We were warned about these events 50 years ago. Maybe this is the time they warned us about, maybe not. Don’t hurt to be ready.
What suffering specifically Vud?
I think Babylon will fall. If I put faith into the Babylon system I would fall with it.

Billy:

WE are the leaches.  (Again that human nature thing.)  It’s just a sad fact that given time human endeavours suffer from entropy like everything else.

So..  Do what you can to make the world right for you and your’s. Enjoy life.  Don’t live in fear of the ‘other’....‘cause entropys gonna get us all in the end.


Granny:  A (very) simple example.  It may not apply to you but it does to a large number of Americans:

The Credit Card Rating.  Now being used to appraise everything from our car and health insurance premiums to prescreening on job applications.

And what can hurt this ‘all important number’?

Under use of credit
Overuse of credit
Opening a credit account
Closing a credit account
Running up a large balance
Paying Off a large balance

But most of us play this game willingly and for what?

A teeny-tiny convenience.

I don’t have credit and some might think I have suffered by doing without what I couldn’t pay cash for, but on the plus side I avoided all the interest and survived debt free.

Very good point Vud.  Oh yes, that nasty lil illness ” Credit”. Now I have managed to stay out of the credit card debt department, I do use a debit card, same convenience well long as you have enough in the account to back it. But I am in that other nasty boat, house payment, car payment, business, and all the insurance costs that go along with them, and life !  We have come to a point where we must spend our lives chasing the dollar ( But then again, maybe humans actually always have, just BIGGER dollars are needed today ?).  I like your suggestion about enjoying life, we do get tightly wrapped up in the Jones race, politics, and forget that there is much more just waiting for us out that door !

Billy : I do not think one would suffer much with only purchasing what they have the cash for.  As you said, you have avoided interest ( 9 times outta 10 thats what gets ya !).

nice post grannysgadgets ...

read Thoreau ... we don’t need all this stuff ... we just become slaves to it all ... and I’m as guilty at this as anyone ...

just look outside at this land we live in ... priceless.

Buffalo1 :  Thank you for your compliment. Now I must return one to you as well. Thank you for suggesting Thoreau, I had never heard of him before, and just now from your advice above I did a Wikpedia search, and read what they had listed. Sounds to be a very interesting fellow ( Liked many of his quotes already !!). I think you have suggested a good read to pass a few of these long winter days to come !
I too know that all the “Needfull” things that we slave for are not needed at all !  But being the silly lil creatures we are, we dive in head first, and spend 20 years or more of our short lives paying it off.  Takes away from alot of time we could have spent doing things of enjoyment, that cost nothing but our time….....  We are a puzzle are we not ?

yes GG, we are puzzling indeed. 

enjoy Thoreau ... I would start with “Walden” ... also check out Aldo Leopold’s “A Sand County Almanac” ...

take care.  B1

Ghandi read Thoreau

Buffalo 1 : well I will do that….. Should fill up the whole winter season, and come out of it enlightened as well ! 

Billy :  Very interesting indeed !

Always good to read others takes on this world, and their lives !

The Internet is an amazing tool.
Access to the treasures of past philosophers.
example;
http://www.mkgandhi.org/amabrothers/amabrothers.htm

“As they could not reach me,” Thoreau continued, “they had resolved to punish my body… I saw that the state was half-witted, that it was timid as a lone woman with her silver spoons, and that it did not know its friends from its foes, and I lost all my remaining respect for it and pitied it.”

Gandhi cherished this excerpt from Thoreau. He studied the entire essay. He called it a ‘masterly treatise’.

how has one grown up in America and NOT heard of thoreau?

and people wonder why I get so upset - it’s because I assume we have a level of education in this country that has a bottom floor…..

and a hint for those about to read aldo leopold -  the guy was an ENVIRONMENTALIST!

oh my god run for the hills!

woody ... you shouldn’t ridicule people for their education level.  I subscribe to the more ‘live and let live’ democratic model.  I’d bet I haven’t read that many books on your bookshelf either.

Maybe you’re just pulling a ‘Steven Corbert’ here, but calling Leopold an ‘Environmentalist’ is grossly marginalizing his greatness as the ‘father of wildlife management’ and his status as an extraordinary writer and American.

‘Environmentalist’ has become a catch phrase, or pejorative, like ‘liberal’ for some folks that are looking for some category to simply cast their enemies into ... but in fact there are all shapes and sizes of ‘environmentalists’, from those who simply want to live on a healthy landscape and act and vote accordingly, to tree spikers/monkey wrenchers.  I really haven’t fully figured out what the Right means by ‘liberal’ other than its everybody that doesn’t agree with all their wacked out views of the world.

Woody; Do you think Kgezian’s are right wing extreme anti-environmentalists?
Most Kgezians I know live in the farmlands and woods whereas most so called liberals live in apartments in the cities.

If we could unite in spite of labels that idiots put on us we could be a force to reckon with.
There are Governments that claim to be Left and those that claim to be Right. The same money supports them both.

Thoreau tried to point out.
If the demands of a government or a society are contrary to an individual’s conscience, it is his/her duty to reject them.

“whereas most so called liberals live in apartments in the cities.”    Just curious as to where you got this enlightening information Billy??  Or would this be answered by your following comment of “labels that idiots put on us”.

Would have to wonder about the “live in the farmlands and woods”.  Oh, unless you mean under a rock?  That would explain why they are supporting (financially and otherwise) their great guru and his hate station.  (Word hate radio comes from google, check it out.  John Stokes KGEZ))

Thats just my view mitch. The ones I know.
You know, New York Liberal
The ones that wear a liberal label on their sleeves and the conservers, the naturalists that see their place in the natural world and the folly of men’s towers and temples to Babylon.
I do believe in Liberty is that part of liberal?
Like they say, “I don’t get out much”, so I rely on people like you to keep me up to date. Thanks.

What I would really ask a so called liberal is would you support the rights of a church to Satan?

What about a brotherhood of satan worshipers trying to deceive and infiltrate our institutions so as to destroy our families and our religion? Would you support that?

Liars put a label on themselves that covers their true intent.

HERE’S OUR FUTURE FOLKS…BLACKMAIL!

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/11/06/liberal-activist-groups-threatens-democrats-opposed-government-run-option/

Thanks cj.

who would vote yes on government universal health care?

For those of you who have NOT seen this documentary I will put it on here again, why?  Because if you watch it all the way through you will see that these postings are following EXACTLY the guidelines the government wants.  Blaming the demo, republics, liberals, environs, leftist, rightist.. this is what they WANT to keep our focus OFF what they are really doing.  I don’t use credit either (except my house and wish I didn’t have to) but i have and it nearly destroyed me mentally, as it is now doing with millions of Americans.  We are a programmed nation in more ways than one.  The boob tube has ended our “families” and we will follow like sheep the printed or tube words and directions.  We are in a sleepwalking society that will not wake up until our freedoms and monies are gone..believe it!  In 1981 I said that the first no income no asset loan was going to bring down the industry with fraud and it has ever since, the lenders didn’t care tho because they were getting paid and guess what, they still don’t because they are getting paid.  Only NOW its by us. 
Watch it and weep:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VebOTc-7shU