Comments on: Fatal Crash Grounds Key Part of Firefighting Fleet
Newest First
By Craig moore on 07-02-12 @ 6:42 pm
As I wrote on another thread, meanwhile the most effective response sits grounded:http://www.evergreenaviation.com/pdf/Supertanker_Statement_062912.pdf
===quote===
Date: 6/29/12
Evergreen International Aviation Statement Concerning the Supertanker
We felt compelled to release this statement due to the overwhelming amount of calls we have
received concerning the availability of the Evergreen Supertanker. We at Evergreen are saddened
by the fire devastation now taking place in many Western US states. For over 60 years, we have
supported the US Forest Service in its important mission to battle and control fires, and it is
our desire to continue this rich history of service. While our helicopters continue to work
fires for the State of Alaska under State contracts, unfortunately, our Boeing 747 Supertanker
Very Large Air Tanker (VLAT) aircraft awaits activation with the US Forest Service.
We have never been told why we have not been activated by the US Forest Service, so we can only
speculate as to why we face this outcome:
1. We were offered a Call-When-Needed (CWN) contract a few years ago by the US Forest
Service (proving our technical viability), but we were never called into action resulting in
a multi-million dollar loss to our company as we were required to maintain and have
flight crew available should we be called. The only contract that will sustain a VLAT
program is an Exclusive-Use contract, which provides an income stream to sustain the
program even if the asset is not utilized. We invested over $50M to develop this asset in
the firm belief that we could better control fires as we proved in Israel and Mexico under
CWN contracts that we could afford to offer at the time.
2. There have been recent changes to the US Forest Service procurement policies. Today,
only small businesses are eligible for contract awards concerning air tanker assets;
Evergreen is not a small business and, therefore, is excluded from consideration for any
award.
3. The US Forest Service’s specification for Next Generation Air Tanker aircraft limits tank
size to 5,000 gallons. The Supertanker’s tanks hold about 20,000 gallons, which is
considered outside the USFS specification. The USFS just awarded contracts to four
small businesses with aircraft equipped with these smaller tanks, and excluded the
Evergreen Supertanker. Since World War II, tank capacities have been in the 3,000 to
5,000 gallon range, yet we continue to face the growing threat from mega fires today. We
believe the Supertanker represents an overwhelming response to this growing threat.
Please contact your state representatives in Washington DC to demand an examination of their
current procurement policies concerning VLAT aircraft. The US Forest Service says it best: “Only
YOU can prevent wildfires.”
===end quote===
When you hear officials claim they are “doing everything possible,” call them on their baloney.
By hotfishmt on 07-03-12 @ 10:01 am
Sad to see more crew members lost during fire fighting. Now, to Mr. Moore; using a 747 Super Tanker….gota be one crazy idea. Its not that such a large plane would have multiple uses…only for
sage brush or flat land fires. It no brainer….that such a large plane for one IS NOT NIMBLE at all.
Smaller tankers like the one new jet Neptune just put into use is a far better way to proceed. And
the US Air Force C-130 that just crashed…..its like putting a “newbie” into the middle of a fire fight
in some far away war. The crews have no much time to acclimate to the proper use & terrain.
Fire fighting in the mountains is best when one has a very nimble slow going ability with air
tankers…and I cannot imagine the results from using a 747 Super Tanker….way too big. I have
been on fires where B-17’s, PBY’s, and C-130’s and helicopters, are used…and can’t fathom a
747 being anything except a total failure…..given the fact also….that most runways where tankers
might be used….are too short for a 747???????
By Craig moore on 07-03-12 @ 10:41 am
hotfishmt, the 747 has been used successfully fighting fires in other countries. Call it crazybut it has a record of success. As to you point about terrain, sure it depends. Today the
Ash Creek fire is set to make a serious run with high winds expected. The 747 could help make
and hold fire lines with its jumbo capacity. Also, it has a pressurized delivery system, not
gravity drop like other tankers thereby enabling it to deliver its payload at higher altitude.
See http://www.evergreenaviation.com/supertanker/faq.html
===quote===
How can a plane the size of a Boeing 747 fly low enough to be an effective firefighting tool?
Current firefighting aircraft use a gravity drop system. Quite simply, this means they have
tanks with doors that open and discharge the aircraft’s contents. This type of system requires
an aircraft to fly very low, around 200 ft. It is very dangerous work; especially since the
majority of air tankers used in the U.S. are vintage World War II era aircraft designed for high
altitude bombing missions.
Evergreen’s Supertanker utilizes a new type of pressurized system allowing the aircraft to fight
fire from higher altitudes. Depending on mission requirements, the Supertanker’s versatile
application system can disperse retardant under high pressure, for an overwhelming response, or
drop retardant equivalent to the speed of falling rain. The system was designed to allow the
Evergreen Supertanker to fly at a very safe altitude, 300 to 600 ft, and within its design
envelope. Also, the Evergreen Supertanker’s tank system allows segmented drops. This means that
the aircraft can drop its 20,500 gallons at multiple intervals while in flight.
===end quote===
This plane could run laps out of Billings.
By Craig moore on 07-03-12 @ 10:46 am
Here’s what we are facing today:
===quote===
Fire Weather Warning
Statement as of 9:11 AM MDT on July 03, 2012
... Red flag warning remains in effect until midnight MDT tonight
for low humidities… hot temperatures… strong gusty winds… and
wind shift with a cold front for all of south central Montana…
all of southeast Montana… parts of northwest South Dakota… and
parts of north central Wyoming…
* affected area… in Montana… fire zones… 123… 124… 125… 126
127… 128… 129… 130
131… 132… 133
in Wyoming… fire zones… 274… 284
* impacts… critical fire weather conditions are expected this
afternoon and evening.
* Cold front… a strong cold front will shift winds from the
southwest to the northwest late this afternoon. The front
will move through Harlowton and Livingston around 3 PM…
Billings around 5 PM and Miles City and Sheridan around 7 PM.
* Wind… southwest 10 to 20 mph with gusts up to 30 mph this
afternoon… shifting to the northwest 15 to 30 mph with gusts up
to 45 mph behind the cold front.
* Humidity… 5 to 15 percent
* temperatures… 95 to 105… near record highs for today.
===end quote===
By hotfishmt on 07-03-12 @ 12:02 pm
There has to be some serious $$$$ being talked about if Mr. Moore is so in love with a 747. If I am half way correct….the day charge, use charge, standbye charge…for a 747 has to be some
where in the area of $30,000 a day or maybe inexcess of $45,000 a day. Course a 747 can or
should fly only in the daytime.
Plus, one other are of concern of any use of a 747…is the needed air space to fly, turn, drop, exit
etc….while avoiding other aircraft….and keep out of its blow back jet engines (wash)....pitty the
small birdog pilot….giving drop & approach instructions to a D-11 (cat) size machine when you
need a D-4 for driveway repair/work.
By Craig moore on 07-03-12 @ 2:08 pm
hotfish, your speculation about $$$$ is baseless and wrong to the nth degree. The winds arenow in excess of 30 mph with themp at 100+ at the leading fire edge. You want to fiddle while
Montana burns. Get the assets into the fight.
By hotfishmt on 07-06-12 @ 2:50 pm
Mr. Moore, I guess you can fight the fight….but your comments are self serving with the 747 and other aircraft. Let me guess its around $22,000 a day for a Chinook Helicopter…how good is that
guess and the $30,000 a day….since you have INSIDE information…..tell us how much a day the
747 does cost to rent ??? Dare to let us know ??? Bet not.
You must be some big wig with Evergreen….since you are trying to convince people that a 747
sitting is better than nothing. I have been on over 100 fires, some as large as 100,000 acres in
Callifornia and was lead chain saw on a real hot shot crew….and one fire had 66 Dozers & 24
tankers….so I am not as ill informed at you might think.
Picture a 20,000 gallon drop….can’t too close to ground troops? Even with small tankers….its hit
the ground if they come if for a close drop….water weighs 8# per gallon….add retardent and
around 9# per gallon….time 20,000….that is some serious weight to hit BELOW…onto what or
whom…..747 is a flying Elehphant an you want the $$ Evergreen invested back…..right.
By hotfishmt on 07-07-12 @ 11:46 am
Just today on the web news, was a story about the company that makes the SLIDE IN…unit/tanker for the C-130’s. It seems the company is out of business and as usual the system needs some
tweaking for people to put the “system” inside a C-130 and then be able to use it properly. With
that being said the Air National Guard from North Carolina….lost 4 men when the plane crashed
this week…..NEWBIES….using an unfamiliar contraption and how to drop the load….and so one
large plane (its replacable) and 4 lives lost due to lack of training/time/methods. Thrown into the
fire battle….short on experience.
With so many air tankers….being on the short supply, and needing NIMBLE PLANES….what
about taking a look see at the A-10 Wart Hog….engines up high, can carry a good heavy load, is
very nimble & good visibility and can go slow or fast ??????? Sure better than a 747
The views expressed in the comments section do not reflect those of the Beacon.