Add part time and seasonal workers who are looking for full time work, the real number of under-employed is even much higher.

How about all the small independent contractors, plus all the ones that have already left the area.

We now are $850B in debt creating jobs. That failed attempt is partly due to the attention to passing health care rather than focusing on what this county needs most.

I like an old adage that goes like this It is better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. I use that in reference to myself when it comes to politics. Now here goes,were there not actual job programs that helped bring us out of the depression of the 30’s? Why did our govt. give money to bankers to stimulate economic growth when it seems they were the ones that helped get us here?

There does not need to be any name calling or mud slinging just explain to me why with all that money could we have not been paying people to build trails reduce fuels in our forests and so on. We built dams in the 30’s we could at least tear some down or rebuild Katrina areas anything it seems would have been better than this.

How long will the citizens of the Flathead need to wait before Mayor Fisher and the Kal. City Council and the Flathead County Commission comes to the realization that in order for wealth to be produced and opp. for employment to be avail. that the tax, spend, and regulate appetite of these governments must of necessity be slashed, cut, and removed as the barriers they are to achieving real economic success? The level of competence as regards economic and moral clarity from objective reality are shockingly absent with our elected personnel. It’s almost pathetic.

If Obama and his socialist friends in this country have their way there will soon be plenty of jobs.  Everyone will work for the state in one fashion or another.  The destruction of free enterprise and the entrepreneurial spirit has begun.  It will take time for the process to run its course.  In the meantime, many Americans will gradually come to understand how insidious forced collectivism can be.  We won’t be starving quickly as did Ukrainians and other ethnic groups under the ‘benevolence’ of Comrade Stalin.  It will be slowly and administered more humanely, until finally when we can’t afford Wal-Mart and a Civic, as ‘By-the-way’ wrote, we will capitulate and fall in line.  And a good many of us will wonder how it could happen in America as we become ever more thankful for our government rations.

Jobs?  How about bringing all the jobs that were shipped oversea’s back to the USA?  Tax Breaks were given to companies who transferred jobs to other countries.  Now lets do the opposite.  Let’s hit manufacturing companies with penalties for using foreign workers.  Where is our garment industry?  Our Tech industry?  We import way too much.  I went to JCP the other day and was disgusted with the poor quality of clothes and none of them were made in the USA.  We have been exporting jobs far too long.

The major problem with the jobs bill is that the majority went into road construction. When a road is built or repaired 75-80% of the cost is for material. The jobs that are created are good paying jobs but there really aren’t that many considering how much money is spent. The international oil and aggegate companies make most of the money off of these jobs. On the other hand if the money is spent on remodeling or building schools 70% of this money is either wages or profit for smaller localized companies. Its funny how we llet our schools deteriorate but we make sure the highways are in great shape.

Kokanee:

Remember that the Great Depression lasted from 1929 roughly into the late 1930’s or early 1940’s.  Unemployment topped out at 25%.  Also note that full employment returned only with the beginning of WWII.  It was a looong, painful process.
The following link partially explains why money has been pushed out into the economy through the banks in the current crisis (Under Causes) :


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Depression

We have’nt seen depression level unemployment (yet?) and that’s why there is no all-out WPA / CCC style jobs programs being implemented of the kind I think you are referring to.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_Progress_Administration

Finally, here is a previous link showing expenditures in Flathead county including trailhead (re)building and fuel reduction forest management programs funneled through federal, state, city and small business.
Yes, the spending is heavy on road construction but overall there seems a good mix of projects.

http://projects.propublica.org/recovery/locale/montana/flathead

In spite of the cry’s of socialism and the claim’s that the economy should have returned to previous levels in a single year; it will take time AND money to see us through until private sector jobs return.  Even then manufactures’ will chase the cheapest labor costs (outside the US).  Was trying to save one of the last bastions of American manufacturing, autos, worth it? I dunno.

Thanks Vud when your in the hole it is sometimes a hard decision between give up and climb out or keep digging hoping you hit pay dirt. It is just frustrating to see all the bickering and finger pointing and watching wall street get richer when they took all of mine and there will be no chance of getting it back.

Just an FYI but the ” Great Depression ” really didn’t end until after WWII. We were about the only developed nation at that point that had not been bombed in to the ground. We basically rebuilt the world. Due to lack of foresight we gave away our manufacturing jobs and now we need them back, but who will buy our products at the price we require to live the lives we have grown accustomed to? For us to buy goods made in the USA and support our economy we will have to do with less, not a bad thing but it has to be understood that this will have to happen. We not only given away our jobs but the technology with them, that was a bad move.

You have touched on a good point, there is a word that I think would solve a lot of this throwaway culture it is frugal. Frugal is not being cheap but getting the most bang for your buck,but in order to do this there also needs to be some change in manufacturing standards. Having a little pride in what you put out to the consumer and knowing that it is going to last.

We can speculate all we want as to how state and Federal policy’s both present and future will effect the local economy.  The reality is that local politics seems to be the only venue available to citizens to effect change that may directly impact our local economy and do so in a timely manor.  In this regard, since the election of Joe Brenneman to the Flathead County commission, Flathead County has charted a course of heavy and heavy handed land use regulation that continues as it’s goal to limit growth, I.E., economic activity.  Other political jurisdictions such as the cities of Whitefish and Kalispell have also viewed through their land use regulations private property owners and business generating economic activity that often starts at that land use regulation level, as “cash cows” for government coffers, nothing else.  Only a change in attitude, coupled with real “political” land use reform at these local levels that will encourage investment in things other than lawyers and lawsuits, can have an effect on our local economys that may be noticable in the short term.  The cities of Whitefish and Kalispell appear to have begun this process but they can expect significant opposition to any meaningful change by thoes “political” special interest beneficiaries of the present anti-business and anti-property rights system.  Even with a “Republican” majority on the county commission it remains to be seen whether county government will even begin the process of changing direction.  After all, much of what has been established since Democrat Joe Brennemans election to the county commission, established to further the political agendas of these “special interests,”  was established with a complicit “Republican” majority present on the commission.  As someone recently said, Joe Brenneman has gone from successfully herding cows to herding Republicans.  Until this changes, expect that little will be done at the county level to begin in any meaningful way to address our serious local economic problems!

We will not see jobs returning to the US until American labor accepts the fact that labor will never again be valued in dollars per hour.  The world market for manufacturing labor is now valued in yuans per hour. As long as the American consumer requires products at the cheapest price, those products will continue to come from China and the going labor rate is around 2000 yuans per month.  That’s approximately $290 US dollars.

We are still by far the biggest economy in the world.  When you are the biggest economy in the world you will always have a strong currency and when your currency is the strongest, oversea’s products and labor will always be cheaper.  You can’t regulate these things, its simply the economics of a global economy.

Think about things domestically.  We have a weak job market and everyone is struggling yet wall street is poised to have their biggest year on record.  The problem with our economy is much simpler than you think.  Deregulation has alowed corporations to swallow our economy whole, pass on the risk to everyone but themselves and totally avoid paying taxes.  This scenario has widened the wage gap to such an extent that most americans cannot afford a home or health insurance yet the average Wall Street job pays over $200,000 a year.  Nothing is fixed because the biggest campaign contributors are Wall Street and the Insurance industry (and the unions) which are our two biggest road blocks to a healthy economy.

Native, that will change - China is projected to have the world’s biggest economy by 2027, at their present rate of growth.

Maybe, but they also face the same issue we are facing with baby-boomers.  Due to their restrictions on childbirth, they do not have enough young people to replace all of the retirees coming up.  They will have to rely on immigration to fuel their workforce or a collapse under their health care costs is imminant.

Maybe we ought to be more focussed on job creation rather than shoving this health care bill down our throat.  Don’t tell me this president can do both, because he is doing a horrible job at both.

Right now there is help for people without jobs.  There is no help for people who are sick and can’t afford coverage.

On a level I agree with you Hammer but this was Obama’s priority from before he was even elected.  he couldn’t have known this was going to happen.  To just drop it would have wasted more than a year.  I didn’t know this until yesterday but most of the economic legislation that has occured happened without the Presidents input and was determined to happen before Obama was even sworn in.  I guess the Fed has all sorts of measures that are set to go off when indicators get to a certain point.  Things are predetermined.  Truthfully, there is not a lot the president can even do with the economy right now but wait and see.  Unless of course you would prefer they would spend a lot more money.  But even than, that is Congress’s decision, not Obama’s.

People without insurance can still go to the emergency room until we fix the health care system. People who had their unemployment benefits run out, don’t have an emergency room. They have nowhere to go.

$850,000,000,000 ($850B) spent so far. One in ten without a job.

Health care needs fixin’. Tort reform, competition across state lines, medical fraud are just a start. Can we fix this system or do we need our government to get bigger and run this too, with a whole new system?

We need jobs!

$850B already added to the next generation’s debt and for what? Politics. Shameful.

So you want smaller government but….

... we need Tort reform?  Agreed!  So how is this to happen without government intervention?

So we need to limit medical fraud.  Agreed!  So how is this supposed to happen without the government intervening?

Competition across state lines?  Thats what they said about the banks in 1999 which resulted of the repeal of the Glass-Stegall act which was put into place after the great depression to limit the size, & scope of financial institutions.  It also affected their ability to price across state lines.  They said the repeal would allow more competitive pricing and it would stimulate the economy.  Well it did… and not even 10 years later we have allowed them to grow exponentially into “too big to fail” banks that have swallowed up all of their competition and drove out the little banks that make smart, community-based lending decisions.  A great example of “smaller government” deregulation that arguably single-handedly led to this collapse.

$850 billion was a waste?  I know dozens of people that just pulled the gun back out of their mouth because they are back to work either on the by-pass or in the park.  For a lot of them it will enable them to save their house.

I guess your right about the ER thing.  I was just saying there is assistance out there for the unemployed.

It appears you read what you want, the way you want. Held office before or now, possibly?

I’m not suggesting there not be gov’t. involvement but do we have to take the whole enchilada and make it government run?  Don’t think for minute that isn’t what will ultimately happen. Tort will have to be a cap set by someone in authority. Fraud too, etc.

The government should be our friend not our master.

The FCC has set limits of ownership. The government can do that too with HC insurance, without “hands on” running the industry.

Sure we got some jobs. $850,000,000,000 worth? How much is that per job? Per permanent job? How much did the government pay for each clunker traded in on a new car? You can’t tell me you believe the gov’t. is successful in these attempts.

Assistance for the unemployed has run out for some and will continue to do so for others. Then what for these families? I assume you realize that once unemployment runs out, that person is no longer counted as unemployed. The numbers will be improving for those who want stats to work for them.

I am all for “fixing” HC insurance, not ultimately a gov’t. takeover by shutting down the private sector. Competition is healthy but must be kept in check. Government Insurance Commissions are supposed to be in place to do that. Why aren’t they?

Yes, the banking and mortgage industries certainly blew up. Fannie and Freddie, etc. Actually, they were taken down and then had to be held up by our government (pu intended). Hopefully, we learned something from that or as they say, we are destined to repeat it.

I wonder if China or India have thought about starting an international HC insurance program? At a dollar and hour the administrative costs would be minimized greatly [Smile. I hope I haven’t given someone and idea to consider. But…. then, maybe].

We need term limits and not career politicians. The battle for our elected representatives should for the American Way of Life, not for politicians to stay in office.

wow, I actually agree with you completely.  I think our indifference is that of interpretation of what the HC reform bill will actually do.  From what I can gather, I don’t see at as a government takeover of health care.  I see it as regulations set so private insurance can’t be bad guys.  I see the public option as a closer comparative to gov takeover but I don’t see it eliminating private sector insurance (different arguement).  Either way though, if you create caps or limits you still have to have a government agency to monitor it so new regs always create more government.  Not that I want that, I just feel like the “smaller government” crowd wants it both ways.

Impossible to answer if we will see $850 million of new jobs and it is impossible to quantify but I think it is helping the New Deal is proof positive that this sort of recovery money works to some degree.

I see this present health care bill as the creation of another behomoth government bureauacracy subject to high cost, expansion of the governement payroll, all subject to tinkering by our government just has occurred with Social Security, the IRS, Homeland Security and the bulk of other bloated government agencies.  I think better health care can be achieved through the private sector, regulated of course, a change of mandates regarding preexisting conditions and a system where those who can’t afford the premiums perform public service.  There will still be those full-fledged citizens who can’t work, can’t pay, can’t do public service, and of course we need to plan for them.  But let’s limit the government’s direct involvement.

He’s also not doing anything about the North Fork Road in the mistaken belief if he leaves it slightly better than a Nepalese hiking trail it will keep people out and only attract the ‘chosen’ few.  Makes you want to grab each end of his bolo tie strings and….....

The other night I was watching the PBS News Hour, a segment on the economy. They reported that 300,000 (Three Hundred Thousand) plus homes were notified they were in Foreclosure in February 2010.

They reported that 4,600,000 (Four Million Six Hundred Thousand) homes are 90 days or more behind in monthly payments.

And that 3,000,000 (Three Million) homes are expected to be foreclosed on this year.

Using current figures I got from the U.S.Census I calculated the size of 300,000 homes in foreclosure.

300,000 is the total number of single family homes in the entire state of Montana. I repeat the number 300,000 represents every family owned residence in the entire state.

Here is how I got the number, there are 438,282 total housing units in the state of Montana. 69.1 percent are owned or mortgaged. That figures out roughly to be 302,852 homes.

Now I am going to blow your mind using the same U.S.Census data. To get to Three Million 3,000,000 foreclosures you would have to add the total housing units divided by the percentage of owned homes for
Idaho 641479 Wyoming 246393 Montana 438282 North Dakota 313332 South Dakota 361482 Oregon 1628826 and Nebraska 786334 Which total 4,416,128 total housing units.

I plugged in an average percentage of owned single family homes which is roughly 66.5 percent. Of the 4,416,128 total units 2,936,725 are owned. We are still short of 3 Million!

I repeat 3 million Foreclosures are equal to all the homes in Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, North Dakota, South Dakota, Oregon and Nebraska.

This is not a recession this is a National Disaster, where is FEMA?

When I read most comments what I read between the lines is, We are dependent on the large corporations for our jobs. The Large Corporations and Banks have failed us. We need to start at Zero and rebuild our communities based on the talents of our local citizens. The problem is most now are economically unable to fund or obtain funds to start a small business. We need a small business recovery program that looks at solid ideas that provide true value, solves problems and services needs in our community, not credit worthiness. Forget about the global market, we need to focus on the local market.

Sorry I wanted to add this. A major problem facing us besides funding for small business is the lose of skills. We don’t make clothing anymore. Or for that matter we don’t machine much either. We have lost those basic skill in our general work force during the shift to globalization. So if I want to make say fabric I have to first learn how to weave or operate a weaving machine. If I want to make clothing I have to learn how to make patterns, and sew. Where I am I going to get these skills. My point is the longer we rely on the global market the more skills we lose. How long will it be until we forget how to log? How long will it be before all of our logging companies are bankrupt? Maybe some of you have skills and answers and need money. Maybe some of you have money. Invest some of it in your community.

David,

I agree foreclosures (residential and commercial) are and will be an on going problem.  This economy is hanging together *because* of the massive government spending.  eg the $8K 1st time home buyers credit will expire soon, the numbers may reflect that (but it did help during the traditionally slower winte months in my opinion.)

If / when that spending stops a recovery had better well be underway.  Score 1 point for government spending even though in the end it may ultimately fail.

Also, I disagree with your assesment of why our manufacturing jobs have left our shores…it’s largely that many of the labor intensive products are chasing the much cheaper labor markets.  However, I see no reason to not attempt to marry local skills with relatively less expensive foreign products.

For instance, Montana made rifles with (labor intensive) custom-carved Chinese stocks that would be affordable show pieces.

The Montana Chamber of Commerce sponsored and just concluded a trip to China (which I missed) I wonder if they’ve come back with any good ideas?

Vud, yes labor costs are an issue. I don’t know a lot about custom made rifles but I do know a lot about collectibles. Yes Chinese carved rifle stocks may be less expensive but I wonder if they are as collectable as unique carved by an artist piece. What would a custom rifle with a one of a kind or hand carved by a Montanan be worth? Do you know how many wood carver there are in Montana or the Flathead. Most of these guys carve because it is their hobby, their art. Many may want to pick up a few bucks these days.

For me as a collector, what I look for is uniqueness and originality. The cost is relative to the piece. A custom Montana custom made rifle with a Chinese s carved stock wouldn’t make my short list. I bet if you got out there and started partnering with local carvers you could do something really unique.

Here are a couple sources. I don’t know what is going on with the ACF site it is down but I added the Spring show date, it is local. You might go meet some of these guys. I also listed the Northwest Wood Carvers and the the Montana Wood Carvers. My uncle in Spokane has been a carver for more than sixty years and I used to go see him at some of these events. Some of these guys are just amazing and well known. Wood carvers are by and large hunters and gun owners and collectors. Not many would buy a rifle with a Chinese carved stock unless it had a Chinese theme. Any way take a look you might find a new market for a total Montana made product that is a real collectable. Best of luck either way.


Artists and Craftsman of the Flathead
Spring Show:
Date: May 9 and 10 ?Place: Kalispell Center Mall?Saturday, May 9th—10 a.m. to 7 p.m.?Sunday, May 10th—11 a.m. to 5 p.m. ?Cost: FREE Admission to Members of the Public!
http://www.woodcarvers.org/

http://montanawoodcarvers.com/newsletter.htm

David E:

Good points all.

Yes, I am aware there would be a strong bias against a Montana / China rifle—especially for true collectors for whom price would not be the first or even second consideration.

But my larger point was that in order to make a *local* enterprise work, one should not automatically exclude global solutions.

Thanks also for the links.  While that rifle idea was mainly an example I will be checking them out.  It would be interesting to do a cost comparison between local carvers and the imports - as it may not be worth the expense of transport and QA issues in the end.