Let’s be civil. The Flathead Beacon encourages vigorous discussion and lively debate, but we will delete comments that attack other readers, make accusations we can’t verify, stray too far off topic, criticize local businesses (call them if you have a problem), convict someone of a crime, use profanity or are simply judged to be in bad taste. We don’t always have someone moderating comments, so we ask for your help: If you see a comment that violates these ground rules, or you simply deem it offensive, please e-mail editor [at] flatheadbeacon.com. The views expressed in the comments section do not reflect those of the Beacon.
By Quotes from the Past on 04-18-09
“If all economists were laid end to end, they would not reach a conclusion”. - GBS
The real jobless numbers are much higher then the actual reported numbers. Not to mention the actual reported condition of the economy is worse then reported. The housing crunch started in 2006 not 2008. The recession has been going since 2007 not 2008. Is it also really a recession or is it a depression? Look for the facts people don’t trust what you read from one source.
“The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers.“ - TJ
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By James on 04-18-09
A Silver lining? You guys are starting to sound like the DIL, how sad is that! Let’s face it things are really bad here and not getting better any time soon. So what if we hire a bunch of rafting guides this month, last time I checked guides didn’t make enough in a summer to pay their bar tab let alone buy one of the overpriced home in this area. That’s the point of bringing in jobs isn’t it? To buy homes, cars and goceries to support the larger economy. I think you guys have your head in the sand.
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By Nancy on 04-18-09
This is so off base. This percentage does not even hit on the amount of people really out of work here. There are so many independent contractors and business owners in this vally who do not qualify for unemployment benefits and have not filed. We are dying here and it will be at least 10 years of recovery time.
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By Hire US workers, they're right here on 04-18-09
Do you suppose that one of the largest seasonal employers in the area, the Big Mountain ( Whitefish Mountain Resort) could try to hire more US citizens?
The foreign workers were guaranteed 35 hours per week, so when things got thin, US citizens working there got their hours cut first.
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By Nancy on 04-19-09
@Hire…you are right there, but right now there are not any jobs, people are leaving, Flathead is not business or growth friendly, hates newcomers, soon all professionals will not be able to stay if people are not using their services. Doctors, Attorney’s, Insurance, Realtors, Builders, Mom’s & Pop’s, dining, Hotels, it’s the domino effect and it is effecting everyone.
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By mitch on 04-19-09
ummmm, on the “hates newcomers” comment, you might want to clarify that that is your attitude. It certainly does not describe most of us. If you are a “newcomer” and the brunt of bad treatment you might want to check your own attitude, not the attitude of the rest of us.
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By Nancy on 04-19-09
Mitch it is common knowledge that newcomers are not welcomed here, especially those from CA or NY, you only have to read these posts to figure that out. I encourage more growth (moderately) and we can use some diversity too!
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By wrong on 04-19-09
Newcomers are extremely welcome here by those of us who are in the business to capitalize off them. Their money and their ability to spend it blows away what our locals can do. People who move here to get a job don’t last long, in my experience. People who move here to retire and live in luxury absolutely love it here. That is what we need more of at this point, since industry, manufacturing, and timber can’t compete with foreign markets. A working class citizen must figure out how to horn in on the wealthy class, you do this with services targeting them as your clientele. I did not say “preferred clientele” because it is wrong to snub the hardworking locals, they can be my customers too. But the big bucks come from people with lots of disposable income. They’re here to have fun, not try to figure out how to afford it.
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By Nancy on 04-19-09
@wrong….You are right on when you said that people who move here do not usually make it, but if they move here with little debt and try to make a go, that’s wonderful, however, it’s near impossible to make it otherwise. I’ve met alot of folks who’ve moved here for various reasons and have so many struggles to fit in and be accepted. I guess we all have our own views, and I do respect those of others.
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By mitch on 04-19-09
Nancy, I don’t pay too much attention to what most on the blog have to say, as much time it’s mostly ranting. It’s pretty easy for a poster to change their name at each post, thereby (in their minds) seeming that they have many who agree with them. I’ve worked with the public for most of my life. When the remarks turn to “go back where you came from”,“ If you don’t agree you can leave” You can bet you have wingnut hiding behind a flickering screen somewhere and he’s really brave when he can keep his identity hidden.
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By Nancy on 04-19-09
LOL…Mitch, I do agree with you about all of the above, ranting, etc. I too have moved here from other cities and found it takes awhile to fit in, but I do love it and have made wonderful friends. BTW, my name is Nancy and it’s all I use.
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By NYTOMY on 04-20-09
Nancy,
I came from NY 3 years ago and have always felt very welcomed here.
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By James on 04-24-09
So, Wrong and Mitch let me get this straight, you only like newcomers if they have money and you can capitalize off them? Does this mean those that don’t have money should just turn around and go back to where they came from? If this is the case I think I would have to disagree with you, if people must move to the valley I think I would much rather have neighbors who are hard working blue collar types rather than the retired with money crowd. The blue collars seem to assimilate much easier to life here and become productive members of the community. The ones with money on the other hand mostly moved here because they thought it was pretty place to buy a home for investment purposes, seem to isolate themselves either on perpose or because people can’t stand to be around them because all they talked about was how much money they had.
I pick on the Californians just because they are so much fun to tease. They use to come to town with their big SUVs, wearing their new Carhartts and “Montana” hats, with a copy of a River Runs Through It still tucked under their arm. This group was usually quick to become disillusioned with life here because they could not make it like the Montana they fantasized about. Some went broke with their get rich off the simple folk of Montana schemes, turned and high tailed it back to Cali.
Those days are gone now, if not for good, sorry if this dampens your bottom line. I think that the Flathead Valley, like many other recreational boom to bust areas time has come and gone. People no longer want to drive SUVs down dusty rutted roads of this valley , they want hybrids that can zip along on paved city roads. Owning a Montana ranch with log cabins and furniture that were all the rage a couple of years ago are now passé and people are looking more toward the “urban green living spaces”. The retired folks are learning that there’s a reason we have one of the highest rates of bone fractures per capita in the country, and that maybe this isn’t the retirement Mecca that realtors want you to think it is. I don’t want to burst anyone’s bubble if you think you can stand to live here the way it is knowing that the house you buy probably won’t appreciate in value for the next ten years, by all means please come… we could use the money.
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By mitch on 04-24-09
James, when you publish your fictional novel are you going by 2 names? or just James?
Where in my posts did I say I preferred the rich to the blue collar?
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By Bill on 04-24-09
Yeah James, we don’t prefer snobs to good old boys but we need their money! What business, even out-of-state box stores, can survive from the blue collar working class, considering they don’t have much for gainful employment around here anymore?
I know some homebuilders who are pretty tickled they have years of work lined out for them. Oh, no these aren’t rows of spec homes. These are mansions that were fenced and gated before the excavation even began.
Yeah, I snicker at the cute cowboy costumes, too. I’d love to see them throw a calf down for branding…as if, huh?
I don’t mind them boasting how much money they have, I’m thinking on my feet how to help them spend it, we can upgrade and add on till their banker begs ‘em to stop!
No, James, if they don’t have money they came to the wrong place, sorry to say. I know it didn’t use to be like that, but things are different now. The old style of Montana still exists but not in the Flathead Valley. Try along the High Line or way out east, Glendive for example.
We’ll be screaming at how much we have to spend for a fancy new welfare office next at the rate we’re going. Welfare system is overwhelmed lately, according to last night’s local news broadcast. You want to invite a new wave of hard working unemployed cases to town, or a crowd of moneyed-up spenders?
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By James on 04-25-09
Mitch, Sorry, I misread what you said and should not have grouped you in with Wrong. Not sure what your saying about publishing a fictional novel under two names. Hmm… could it mean that you don’t believe when I say the Flathead valley is not as popular as it use to be? No fiction there, all you have to do is look around at all the empty houses and shops to see that I’m right. People blame this event on the economy and in part it is, but the full truth of the matter is that even before the downturn in the economy, places like Kalispell were already starting to show signs of waning popularity. I understand it is a bitter pill for the folks of this valley to swallow, to go from being one of the star destinations of Montana to a big sucking hole with no jobs or money, with no improvement in sight. People of this country have always been fickle when choosing a place to live. Back in the 80s everyone wanted to live in New England and own a B&B, the 90s it was a lodge in Montana and now it seems everyone is moving back to the cities. I think this is partly due to jobs and security in unsure times but I think also partly due to the fact that they have grown tired of the “Montana Lifestyle” and looking for a change. I know there will be many incensed by this, but people just aren’t into Montana that much anymore.
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By Gene on 04-25-09
Don’t you suppose the Flathead has lost its attraction, if that is true, at least partly because it can’t keep up with the flow of immigrants? Everything we need to handle the excess of new faces is too little, too late, not well thought out, not executed in a timely manner. Which is hardly just a Kalispell thing, it happens lots of places.
It really doesn’t bother me. The “Montana Lifestyle” might get more attractive again when the problems get resolved. Slowly but surely. For instance, eventually transportation issues might improve, like highways will be rebuilt to handle the flow more safely.
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By mitch on 04-25-09
James, empty houses and shops, yes. I am sorry for those who found it necessary to sell their homes at this time, it must be next to impossible. We see many mcmansions and subdivisions empty, don’t have much sympathy there for them. Only for the construction workers, etc who never got paid. This isn’t the same area as it was many years ago, and very possible that would influence some who would consider moving here. It sure would influence me if I were to be making such a life changing decision. Where there use to be fields of wild grasses, wet lands, forests, etc…......well, we all know what happened there. That would be where the subdivisions now sit. Granted, some who move here don’t realize how much of the “natural” we have lost, and maybe for those they just can’t handle our winters.
My fictional remark was directed at your description of out of staters. Some are a little strange, granted, but so are some in our valley. I don’t like labeling people. I’ve working with the public and tourists for many years, and most are wonderful and so excited just to be able to be here. I have never run into the situations you mentioned where they boast of their money, but then again most who I’ve dealt with are here on a fabulous vacation.
Anyway, yes James we do agree on this. The boom seems to be over, and I for one liked it better the way it use to be, before it ever boomed. However…....we can’t go back. What would we do with all that concrete and pavement?
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By Really on 04-25-09
A river ran through it, then the realtors ran through it.
Too bad everything the wealthy touch turns to $#it. They often don’t even bother to pay for goods and services, you have to sue them to get what’s owed.
You gotta go to Costco or one of the disgusting box stores JUST LIKE THE ONE they had at home to get the full dose of newby reality.
Try getting close to the bacon display @ Costco on a Saturday morning.
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By mitch on 04-25-09
I am undecided about blaming the realtors for anything as seems to me they are the middle guy here. Developers leave a bad taste in my mouth, and I must say I hold a grudge against the property owners themselves. Oh yes, I’ve heard all the stories about how they couldn’t pay their taxes anymore, they received more for retirement, etc. etc. etc. It all makes sense….sort of. However, I wonder how many of their good neighbors were sick at heart when they seen the adjacent property had been subdivided and their lovely homes and views were going to be forever changed by the subdivision.
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By Gene on 04-25-09
Yes the box stores are the most glaring example of how crowded and urbanized the area wants to become. I say “wants” because people are so thrilled to spend their money at them. If we didn’t want this we wouldn’t go to them, we’d BUY LOCAL whenever possible. Like I do, so no, Really, I haven’t a clue what the bacon display comment is about.
In my business I find the wealthy make great customers if you’ll try to hide the chip on your shoulder making you want to be cold to them. Our policies are very clearly written on their contract and explained verbally to them numerous times, if they wish to ignore them and be a problem we just add the extra hassle charge to their bill. Just like we’d do to a good old boy but the difference is- maybe the good old boy can’t afford the extra charge and will abide by the rules and not be a hassle. Have it your way, sir, and thanks for letting us serve you.
I’m glad the boom is over. There will be growth still but maybe at a rate the infrastructure can deal with in terms of planning how to accomodate and sustain their needs without everybody turning into crabby, mean, ugly, self centered a-holes.
Any box store would make a great civic center of sorts, or a manufacturing plant, or a library, or a homeless shelter, you know. The possibilities are endless. Begin the process by making it more cost effective to a huge corporation to close it and put the property up for sale at a reasonable price. You can do it. BUY LOCAL. Think local. Life could be good here again.
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Let’s be civil. The Flathead Beacon encourages vigorous discussion and lively debate, but we will delete comments that attack other readers, make accusations we can’t verify, stray too far off topic, criticize local businesses (call them if you have a problem), convict someone of a crime, use profanity or are simply judged to be in bad taste. We don’t always have someone moderating comments, so we ask for your help: If you see a comment that violates these ground rules, or you simply deem it offensive, please e-mail editor [at] flatheadbeacon.com. The views expressed in the comments section do not reflect those of the Beacon.
By Quotes from the Past on 04-18-09
“If all economists were laid end to end, they would not reach a conclusion”. - GBS
The real jobless numbers are much higher then the actual reported numbers. Not to mention the actual reported condition of the economy is worse then reported. The housing crunch started in 2006 not 2008. The recession has been going since 2007 not 2008. Is it also really a recession or is it a depression? Look for the facts people don’t trust what you read from one source.
“The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers.“ - TJ
By James on 04-18-09
A Silver lining? You guys are starting to sound like the DIL, how sad is that! Let’s face it things are really bad here and not getting better any time soon. So what if we hire a bunch of rafting guides this month, last time I checked guides didn’t make enough in a summer to pay their bar tab let alone buy one of the overpriced home in this area. That’s the point of bringing in jobs isn’t it? To buy homes, cars and goceries to support the larger economy. I think you guys have your head in the sand.
By Nancy on 04-18-09
This is so off base. This percentage does not even hit on the amount of people really out of work here. There are so many independent contractors and business owners in this vally who do not qualify for unemployment benefits and have not filed. We are dying here and it will be at least 10 years of recovery time.
By Hire US workers, they're right here on 04-18-09
Do you suppose that one of the largest seasonal employers in the area, the Big Mountain ( Whitefish Mountain Resort) could try to hire more US citizens?
The foreign workers were guaranteed 35 hours per week, so when things got thin, US citizens working there got their hours cut first.
By Nancy on 04-19-09
@Hire…you are right there, but right now there are not any jobs, people are leaving, Flathead is not business or growth friendly, hates newcomers, soon all professionals will not be able to stay if people are not using their services. Doctors, Attorney’s, Insurance, Realtors, Builders, Mom’s & Pop’s, dining, Hotels, it’s the domino effect and it is effecting everyone.
By mitch on 04-19-09
ummmm, on the “hates newcomers” comment, you might want to clarify that that is your attitude. It certainly does not describe most of us. If you are a “newcomer” and the brunt of bad treatment you might want to check your own attitude, not the attitude of the rest of us.
By Nancy on 04-19-09
Mitch it is common knowledge that newcomers are not welcomed here, especially those from CA or NY, you only have to read these posts to figure that out. I encourage more growth (moderately) and we can use some diversity too!
By wrong on 04-19-09
Newcomers are extremely welcome here by those of us who are in the business to capitalize off them. Their money and their ability to spend it blows away what our locals can do. People who move here to get a job don’t last long, in my experience. People who move here to retire and live in luxury absolutely love it here. That is what we need more of at this point, since industry, manufacturing, and timber can’t compete with foreign markets. A working class citizen must figure out how to horn in on the wealthy class, you do this with services targeting them as your clientele. I did not say “preferred clientele” because it is wrong to snub the hardworking locals, they can be my customers too. But the big bucks come from people with lots of disposable income. They’re here to have fun, not try to figure out how to afford it.
By Nancy on 04-19-09
@wrong….You are right on when you said that people who move here do not usually make it, but if they move here with little debt and try to make a go, that’s wonderful, however, it’s near impossible to make it otherwise. I’ve met alot of folks who’ve moved here for various reasons and have so many struggles to fit in and be accepted. I guess we all have our own views, and I do respect those of others.
By mitch on 04-19-09
Nancy, I don’t pay too much attention to what most on the blog have to say, as much time it’s mostly ranting. It’s pretty easy for a poster to change their name at each post, thereby (in their minds) seeming that they have many who agree with them. I’ve worked with the public for most of my life. When the remarks turn to “go back where you came from”,“ If you don’t agree you can leave” You can bet you have wingnut hiding behind a flickering screen somewhere and he’s really brave when he can keep his identity hidden.
By Nancy on 04-19-09
LOL…Mitch, I do agree with you about all of the above, ranting, etc. I too have moved here from other cities and found it takes awhile to fit in, but I do love it and have made wonderful friends. BTW, my name is Nancy and it’s all I use.
By NYTOMY on 04-20-09
Nancy,
I came from NY 3 years ago and have always felt very welcomed here.
By James on 04-24-09
So, Wrong and Mitch let me get this straight, you only like newcomers if they have money and you can capitalize off them? Does this mean those that don’t have money should just turn around and go back to where they came from? If this is the case I think I would have to disagree with you, if people must move to the valley I think I would much rather have neighbors who are hard working blue collar types rather than the retired with money crowd. The blue collars seem to assimilate much easier to life here and become productive members of the community. The ones with money on the other hand mostly moved here because they thought it was pretty place to buy a home for investment purposes, seem to isolate themselves either on perpose or because people can’t stand to be around them because all they talked about was how much money they had.
I pick on the Californians just because they are so much fun to tease. They use to come to town with their big SUVs, wearing their new Carhartts and “Montana” hats, with a copy of a River Runs Through It still tucked under their arm. This group was usually quick to become disillusioned with life here because they could not make it like the Montana they fantasized about. Some went broke with their get rich off the simple folk of Montana schemes, turned and high tailed it back to Cali.
Those days are gone now, if not for good, sorry if this dampens your bottom line. I think that the Flathead Valley, like many other recreational boom to bust areas time has come and gone. People no longer want to drive SUVs down dusty rutted roads of this valley , they want hybrids that can zip along on paved city roads. Owning a Montana ranch with log cabins and furniture that were all the rage a couple of years ago are now passé and people are looking more toward the “urban green living spaces”. The retired folks are learning that there’s a reason we have one of the highest rates of bone fractures per capita in the country, and that maybe this isn’t the retirement Mecca that realtors want you to think it is. I don’t want to burst anyone’s bubble if you think you can stand to live here the way it is knowing that the house you buy probably won’t appreciate in value for the next ten years, by all means please come… we could use the money.
By mitch on 04-24-09
James, when you publish your fictional novel are you going by 2 names? or just James?
Where in my posts did I say I preferred the rich to the blue collar?
By Bill on 04-24-09
Yeah James, we don’t prefer snobs to good old boys but we need their money! What business, even out-of-state box stores, can survive from the blue collar working class, considering they don’t have much for gainful employment around here anymore?
I know some homebuilders who are pretty tickled they have years of work lined out for them. Oh, no these aren’t rows of spec homes. These are mansions that were fenced and gated before the excavation even began.
Yeah, I snicker at the cute cowboy costumes, too. I’d love to see them throw a calf down for branding…as if, huh?
I don’t mind them boasting how much money they have, I’m thinking on my feet how to help them spend it, we can upgrade and add on till their banker begs ‘em to stop!
No, James, if they don’t have money they came to the wrong place, sorry to say. I know it didn’t use to be like that, but things are different now. The old style of Montana still exists but not in the Flathead Valley. Try along the High Line or way out east, Glendive for example.
We’ll be screaming at how much we have to spend for a fancy new welfare office next at the rate we’re going. Welfare system is overwhelmed lately, according to last night’s local news broadcast. You want to invite a new wave of hard working unemployed cases to town, or a crowd of moneyed-up spenders?
By James on 04-25-09
Mitch, Sorry, I misread what you said and should not have grouped you in with Wrong. Not sure what your saying about publishing a fictional novel under two names. Hmm… could it mean that you don’t believe when I say the Flathead valley is not as popular as it use to be? No fiction there, all you have to do is look around at all the empty houses and shops to see that I’m right. People blame this event on the economy and in part it is, but the full truth of the matter is that even before the downturn in the economy, places like Kalispell were already starting to show signs of waning popularity. I understand it is a bitter pill for the folks of this valley to swallow, to go from being one of the star destinations of Montana to a big sucking hole with no jobs or money, with no improvement in sight. People of this country have always been fickle when choosing a place to live. Back in the 80s everyone wanted to live in New England and own a B&B, the 90s it was a lodge in Montana and now it seems everyone is moving back to the cities. I think this is partly due to jobs and security in unsure times but I think also partly due to the fact that they have grown tired of the “Montana Lifestyle” and looking for a change. I know there will be many incensed by this, but people just aren’t into Montana that much anymore.
By Gene on 04-25-09
Don’t you suppose the Flathead has lost its attraction, if that is true, at least partly because it can’t keep up with the flow of immigrants? Everything we need to handle the excess of new faces is too little, too late, not well thought out, not executed in a timely manner. Which is hardly just a Kalispell thing, it happens lots of places.
It really doesn’t bother me. The “Montana Lifestyle” might get more attractive again when the problems get resolved. Slowly but surely. For instance, eventually transportation issues might improve, like highways will be rebuilt to handle the flow more safely.
By mitch on 04-25-09
James, empty houses and shops, yes. I am sorry for those who found it necessary to sell their homes at this time, it must be next to impossible. We see many mcmansions and subdivisions empty, don’t have much sympathy there for them. Only for the construction workers, etc who never got paid. This isn’t the same area as it was many years ago, and very possible that would influence some who would consider moving here. It sure would influence me if I were to be making such a life changing decision. Where there use to be fields of wild grasses, wet lands, forests, etc…......well, we all know what happened there. That would be where the subdivisions now sit. Granted, some who move here don’t realize how much of the “natural” we have lost, and maybe for those they just can’t handle our winters.
My fictional remark was directed at your description of out of staters. Some are a little strange, granted, but so are some in our valley. I don’t like labeling people. I’ve working with the public and tourists for many years, and most are wonderful and so excited just to be able to be here. I have never run into the situations you mentioned where they boast of their money, but then again most who I’ve dealt with are here on a fabulous vacation.
Anyway, yes James we do agree on this. The boom seems to be over, and I for one liked it better the way it use to be, before it ever boomed. However…....we can’t go back. What would we do with all that concrete and pavement?
By Really on 04-25-09
A river ran through it, then the realtors ran through it.
Too bad everything the wealthy touch turns to $#it. They often don’t even bother to pay for goods and services, you have to sue them to get what’s owed.
You gotta go to Costco or one of the disgusting box stores JUST LIKE THE ONE they had at home to get the full dose of newby reality.
Try getting close to the bacon display @ Costco on a Saturday morning.
By mitch on 04-25-09
I am undecided about blaming the realtors for anything as seems to me they are the middle guy here. Developers leave a bad taste in my mouth, and I must say I hold a grudge against the property owners themselves. Oh yes, I’ve heard all the stories about how they couldn’t pay their taxes anymore, they received more for retirement, etc. etc. etc. It all makes sense….sort of. However, I wonder how many of their good neighbors were sick at heart when they seen the adjacent property had been subdivided and their lovely homes and views were going to be forever changed by the subdivision.
By Gene on 04-25-09
Yes the box stores are the most glaring example of how crowded and urbanized the area wants to become. I say “wants” because people are so thrilled to spend their money at them. If we didn’t want this we wouldn’t go to them, we’d BUY LOCAL whenever possible. Like I do, so no, Really, I haven’t a clue what the bacon display comment is about.
In my business I find the wealthy make great customers if you’ll try to hide the chip on your shoulder making you want to be cold to them. Our policies are very clearly written on their contract and explained verbally to them numerous times, if they wish to ignore them and be a problem we just add the extra hassle charge to their bill. Just like we’d do to a good old boy but the difference is- maybe the good old boy can’t afford the extra charge and will abide by the rules and not be a hassle. Have it your way, sir, and thanks for letting us serve you.
I’m glad the boom is over. There will be growth still but maybe at a rate the infrastructure can deal with in terms of planning how to accomodate and sustain their needs without everybody turning into crabby, mean, ugly, self centered a-holes.
Any box store would make a great civic center of sorts, or a manufacturing plant, or a library, or a homeless shelter, you know. The possibilities are endless. Begin the process by making it more cost effective to a huge corporation to close it and put the property up for sale at a reasonable price. You can do it. BUY LOCAL. Think local. Life could be good here again.