Comments on: Health Care System isn’t Working
By a on 07-31-09
Most people don’t have a clue as to what health care costs in money and frustration.
A woman, I know, works for the State and has been taken care of for thirty years, yet she watches Fox News and is an expert on why the Government shouldn’t be in health care business.
She has no idea how good she has it. I want what she has. I am so tired of paying taxes, insurance premiums and my families doctors bills. All my insurance is, is asset protection, it has nothing to do with actual health care.
We all pay our taxes and for that older Americans get health care, the military and chips are covered. Government workers get covered. I don’t begrudge anyone that.
What I begrudge is not only do I pay my taxes, I get to pay insurance premiums of $8400 a year (for a healthy family of four) for a $10000 deductible and all our medical expenses. Because the deductible is high we don’t even go to the doctor. If we didn’t own a house and two business, I wouldn’t bother with insurance.
I am so frustrated. I think we should all keep paying our taxes,
and instead of me paying insurance premiums, too, I pay more taxes (it will be cheaper in the long run). Then what the woman who works for the state gets, extends to my family. We add the “rights” Obama want to give us, because they very important elements.
Don’t let Rehberg and his rich Republican colleagues screw me over again.
By By and By on 07-31-09
Instead of spending $8400 a year why not invest it in yourself and buy Gold and Silver? This way you get something for your money, you hopefully get a good return, and in an emergency you can cash in what you need to pay bills. Because as it is now if you have a $10000 emergency then you’ve now spent almost $20000 for the year in health care. Where as if you self insured you’d only be out the $10000.
I understand the need to protect your assets but would there be a catastrophic insurance that would be significantly less money per year? Where all it covers is Major emergency medical, like cancer or other costly maladies?
If the Government has it’s way then I’ll end up losing more from my paycheck for less health care benefits then I have now. It currently costs me $2400 a year through my employer for a family of 4 with a $1500 or so deductible I believe. That’s on top of the fact that it’s only and 80% coverage and I get paid so little after all the current taxes we barely can afford the 20% we have to pay to go to the doctors.
So I’m no health care expert but I don’t think we need to force people to take the government coverage, and it should be taken as the form of a payment into the plan not “free”. The Health care industry needs reform in the cost department but I don’t think 1 Trillion dollars over 10 years is really free.
By a on 07-31-09
For that money either you are in your twenties and/or your employer is subsidizing your insurance.
I know, I play with the figures every time I have to renew my policy. It’s the chronic illnesses I worry about. I keep thinking it’s the difference between $20000 and bankruptcy. With an accident that could change our lives, even with insurance I could go bankrupt.
The health care industry has proven time and time again they will not change without being forced. I still shake my head at Bush not even allowing the Government to negotiate with the drug makers.
By coldsteel on 08-01-09
WHY o WHY PEOPLE??? Why do you still blame Bush or Obama or Nixon, Carter/Clinton or Reagan when it should be clear by now presidents are merely figureheads..(well Kennedy tried to be a “real” president and such behavior is duly rewarded) Some of you are just plain not listening…What did Hillary just tell the world? What did she say clearly in her address to the CFR? “We get a lot of advice from the Council, so this will mean I won’t have as far to go to be TOLD WHAT WE SHOULD BE DOING AND HOW WE SHOULD THINK ABOUT THE FUTURE.” The CFR runs the USA and with Biden shouting from the rooftops that he’s Zionist, Chief of Staff, Rahm Emanuel strutting around the Oval Office relaying all sensitive info to Mossad and simultaneously ordering wanna be Chairman Obama to continue process of making USA citizens optimally accept a Gaza style lifestyle. Ubiquitous checkpoints, properties stolen (bulldozed or given to member of the “party”), assassinations and kidnapping, torture, snarky suicides, food rationing..water shortages.. coming to every town and city throughout America? We let those people corrupt our money supply, media, education system, courts, military and even some of our churches. Anyone stating or by their actions showing they are zionist should be immediately deported to Israel and certainly be removed and forever barred from office in American government. “a”, incorporate and place all assets under the corporation. Put your Dad as CEO. You have nothing in your name and are homeless on paper and to the eyes of hospital/insurance staff. Paying premiums for a substandard product certainly makes no sense. Just think how many 2.2 lb gold bars you could have stacked in your basement right now instead of worhless long stretch of debits on your balance sheet.
By a on 08-01-09
Huh?.........that was quite a rant.Trading in gold standard or paper money is all a human invention based on trust. You can’t eat gold or silver.
By By and By on 08-01-09
@ a on - Well You can’t eat that worthless paper either and when we’re all starving for food and you try to buy some I doubt that paper crap will get you much more then a few wipes after the toilet where as gold an silver will get you that food you’d like to eat.
By Roark on 08-01-09
a - the point is this; no man is entitled to any man’s life. period. Your insurance premiums are through the roof because of several factors, here are a few 1) the USA does not have a true free market of healthcare, ie there is medicare, medicaid, welfare, social security, etc. All of these government entities figure into how much capital you won’t have at the end of the day, due to your taxes being taken to fund them all. The less capital you have the less capital you can spend on health insurance and treatment for yourself or your loved ones. 2) There are literally hundreds of laws that both insurance and Dr’s need to obey or face state discipline.-and they are laws that have nothing to do with fraud or malpractice. It is these reg’s which further cause the disconnect between real health care quality and affordability, once again because the state has allowed interference into your capacity to make decisions on your health care needs and/or by empowering HMO’s via state favoritism to charge x amount of dollars that certainly raises their profits, but also disallow competition to drive prices way way down. Only by letting a laissez-faire market of health care options will both quality and quantity go up because business will be competing for your patronage and money. And when there is true competition, as anyone who understands basic economic knows, prices drop.
By woody on 08-01-09
except roark - in a “free market” society pushed by libertarians - the word darwinian comes to mind - survival of the fittest
wal-mart comes in - drops their prices below what it cost them to acquire the goods - thereby forcing every other small company out of business….allowing wal-mart to monopolize the market ....for 200+years that kind of corporate behavior was considered ILLEGAL - until the reagan revolution of robin hood for the rich
NOW we have the largest spread between the rich and the middle calss in the entire industrialized world…...
but the libertarians say “hey that’s great” the more money one has the more power they should have….
Frankly I wholeheartedly disagree w/ that…..money does not equal moral citizenship - nor does it confront the issue of degradation of the “Commons” (clean water, clean air, protection from dangerous chemicalsin our food, etc)- which libertarians cannot admit to…..
AND Wendell Potter (who you libertarians won’t even admit exists) has already exposed the private health care industry as controlled by 5 providers - who in large part own large sections of each other - making our current health care system a monopoly…....
By emerson on 08-01-09
America is a nation of citizens not simply an auction of individuals.
Laissez-faire is a concept that history has proven to be both barbaric and so volatile that it threatens civilization. Imagine taking the concepts of the unregulated credit swap derivative market (the same market that brought the world to the edge of financial collapse) and extending it to all aspects of life - including health care… The people who are spouting that kind of stuff are either stupid or sinister.
All that progressives want is for people and business to have another OPTION. To be able to choose to buy into the same health care plan that congress and government employees have.
If you like your health insurance as it is, you can keep it. All that reform is trying to do is bring another CHOICE to the table, and Republicans are trying their hardest through outright lies and misinformation to take that CHOICE away.
Republicans and conservatives are completely bought and traded and owned by insurance corporations.
All that Democrats want to do is to provide an OPTION for people to not have to buy corporate insurance—an OPTION!
By emerson on 08-01-09
Example of how completely misinformed the public is about the debacle that is Health Insurance in America (with the rabid encouragement of FOX news and the conservative misinformation machine).
At a recent town hall meeting, a man stood up and told Representative Bob Inglis to “keep your government hands off my Medicare.”
By emerson on 08-01-09
Roark says: “no man is entitled to any man’s life.” This is true.
But Roark - you have to live in a very deep and dark place if you believe that money is the same as life.
By Craig moore on 08-01-09
Here is a different take on the US system versus others. See: http://www.hoover.org/publications/digest/49525427.html
By emerson on 08-01-09
We should think twice before we start taking advice from the foundation for the founder of the American great depression.
Many of the stats in the previously mentioned report are twisted to promote a status quo that will lead to financial disaster (not surprising from Herbert Hoover’s institute I guess).
By Craig moore on 08-01-09
Emerson writes: “All that Democrats want to do is to provide an OPTION for people to not have to buy corporate insurance—an OPTION!”
He is greatly misinformed. The Insurance Exchange would dictate a pro forma policy for all to write that want to participate. There would be no competition on terms and conditions. Here ‘s where it gets real interesting. Commercial insurers have to file regulatory reports, be subject to auditing, be licensed in each and every state separately, and pay those states’ insurance taxes to fund the process. This is in addition to hiring a large staff to process the compliance reporting etc. The public option would be exempt from the taxes and regulatory reporting to each and every state. The public option would have a significant cost advantage. The public option would not have to make a profit to satisfy shareholders.
The public option rigs the game. Read National Underwriter for more on this: http://www.property-casualty.com/News/2009/7/Pages/Senate-Panel-Says-InsurerFriendly-Health-Plan-In-The-Works.aspx
By Craig moore on 08-01-09
Emerson, read about Scott Atlas who wrote it: http://www.hoover.org/bios/atlas.html
By Craig moore on 08-01-09
Even more on Scott Atlas: http://stanfordhospital.org/profiles/stanfordhospital/frdActionServlet?choiceId=facProfile&docNo=3456
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Dr. Atlas has authored more than 100 scientific publications in leading journals. His research has centered on advanced applications of new MRI technologies in neurologic diseases. He has lectured throughout the world on a variety of topics, most notably advances in MRI of the brain, and the key economic issues related to the future of such technology-based advances.
Dr. Atlas’s research interests as a Senior Fellow at Hoover center on issues pertaining to public policy in health care. He is investigating the role of government in the emerging era of consumerism in health care, both within the United States and globally. His work includes investigations into the effects of the changing health care marketplace on technology-based innovations in medicine. At the Freeman-Spogli Institute for International Studies, he has particular interests in the evolving health care system of emerging economies, and has a recent Fulbright award to collaborate with academic leaders in China on structuring health care solutions for China. Dr. Atlas is also participating with leaders from government and academia on the World Bank’s Commission on Growth and Development.
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By emerson on 08-01-09
Craig Moore says - after saying I am misinformed:
“The public option would not have to make a profit to satisfy shareholders.”
Exactly!
Medicaid, medicare and the VA health systems operate at 3-4% overhead. Private insurance is running at closer to 20+% overhead mainly because health care is paying profits and massive fat and unsustainable salaries to their executives.
Scare tactics from the same “wise men” that gave us the Great Depression and Bushecomics are just failure - failure - and more failure.
By a on 08-02-09
Ok, so there is a very vocal libertarian voice in the Flathead. That philosophy of “Every men for himself and in the name of God we all get a gun” is one that isn’t worth arguing with.
The philosophy runs counter to reality. Reality is there are millions of people on the planet and we have to work together.
I say this because the right wingers, that are so vocal on these pages, will probably never understand how it all works.
In the meantime, as they ##### and complain, they will continue to use the expensive health care system we have, all the while shoving cogs into it’s wheels, making the whole thing more costly.
By woody on 08-02-09
why does the rightwing here ALWAYS use as source info some crazy neo-con or other conservative foundation dedicated to increasing the power of the multi-national corporation - all in the name of “free enterprise”?
Which is ONLY “free” for the corporation - WE THE PEOPLE are turned into serfs by the likes of Hoover and his “Corporate Profits are God” ideology of creating bubbles and then bursting them - all the while the corporations make money on the upside and the downturn - while WE the PEOPLE fall furthure into debt.
I suppose that given the distressing lack of education we can’t remember that during the republican great depression of the 1920’s and 30’s the camps of the homeless were called “Hooverville’s’.
Add in the known members of the Hoover Institute such as Condi Rice, George Schultz, it’s affiliation w/ the Heritage Institutte, Milton Friedman, Ed Meese, Maggie Thatcher,etc etc etc
and you have one the the MOST DESTRUCTIVE foundations active today in America.
AND that is the group of war-mongers, and neo-cons pushing their corporate global dominence you libertarians follow?
By Craig moore on 08-02-09
Emerson, changing the subject really highlights the “lie” in your statement - “All that Democrats want to do is to provide an OPTION for people to not have to buy corporate insurance—an OPTION!” It’s quite obvious you don’t want any commercial insurers to compete in the system.
As to your overhead comparison, you are either incredibly ignorant or are just blowing smoke. As I stated above, commercial insurers are regulated and taxed in each state. They have regulatory compliance requirements to those states. The federal programs you mention don’t have those requirements, costs, and associated overhead. Your comparison is apples to horse apples.
As to making a profit, do you have any idea who the S/Her’s are? Mostly retirement funds, state, unions and private business 401 k’s etc, and mutual funds. These entities are people investing for their futures.
woody, you have become irrational. Dr. Atlas’s credentials are impeccable. Try arguing the facts and skip the inflammatory BS.
By Roark on 08-02-09
emerson, like Woody, sophie, and Kalispell Native, it looks as though you too will have to be educated on objectivist philosophical idea’s.-since you have surrendered your mind to the left and you allow emotional whims to be your standard of judgment, let me help you understand the error of your thinking. Good thing I have patience for the ignorant.
MONEY: “Money rests on the axiom that every man is the owner of his mind and his effort. Money allows no power to prescribe the value of your effort except the voluntary choice of the man who is willing to trade you his effort in return. Money permits you to obtain for your goods and your labor that which they are worth to the men who buy them, but no more. Money permits no deals except those to mutual benefit by the unforced judgment of the traders.”-Ayn Rand
LIFE: ” The right to life means that a man has the right to support his life by his own work (on any economic level, as high as his ability will carry him); it does not mean that others must provide him with the necessities of life…The Right of Life means that Man cannot be deprived of his life for the benefit of another man nor of any number of other men.”-Ayn Rand
By woody on 08-02-09
“The Right of Life means that Man cannot be deprived of his life for the benefit of another man nor of any number of other men.“-Ayn Rand”
Well if that is true Roark - why are you supporting a MONOPOLY that is our health care industry to deny benefits and to profit on the misery of WE THE PEOPLE?
That Ayn Rand statement IS exactly why we need regulation of the oil and energy industry, the health industry, the food/corn industry, the meat industry, the war machine industry, private war contractors,the financial industry, etc etc etc and the lobbying that allows those that have created MONOPOLIES in all those industries to harm WE THE PEOPLE!
All for a buck…..
BUT not 1 word about that from the ayn rand/libertarian side - BECASUE those profits thru manipulation are what you want.
THERE is nothing democratic about the Any Rand loonies.
By emerson on 08-02-09
Roark - some people (I hope most people) simply do not believe that a philosophy that worships selfishness is either moral or realistic.
A society, nation or world that is “everyone for themselves” is not a world that I wish to pass on to my children.
You are free to philosophize and conceptualize in the abstract your obtuse morality, but its application in the real world would be disasterous and lead to consequences that normal, rational and moral people would call evil.
As long as you call yourself an American citizen you have an obligation to live under the charter that has created this nation. You enjoy the fruits of that charter - public roads, education, a basically sane and safe society.
If you wish to “free” yourself from the encumberances of living in a society where you have obligations to other citizens, you should move to the wilderness or to one of many nation states that practice anarchy. There are places that practice your philosophy. They are mainly thug states because that is the natural outgrowth of your philosophy.
Until you do so, it is hypocritical for Ayn Rand Objectivists to live in a society where they enjoy the fruits and benefits of shared obligations while simultaneously complaining about “being enslaved” to shared obligations themselves.
If you despise the shared obligations of this society so much and see them as such a moral evil, then please stop participating in our society!
By Roark on 08-02-09
emerson, let me set you straight…again.
ANARCHY:Anarchy, as a political concept, is a naive floating abstraction: . . . a society without an organized government would be at the mercy of the first criminal who came along and who would precipitate it into the chaos of gang warfare. But the possibility of human immorality is not the only objection to anarchy: even a society whose every member were fully rational and faultlessly moral, could not function in a state of anarchy; it is the need of objective laws and of an arbiter for honest disagreements among men that necessitates the establishment of a government.
SOCIETY:Modern collectivists . . . see society as a super-organism, as some supernatural entity apart from and superior to the sum of its individual members.
-Ayn Rand
ps…emerson, If I, or the works of Miss Rand, can correct any other erroneous idea’s you have of objectivism or related topics, please don’t hesitate to ask.
By Craig moore on 08-03-09
There is a new Rasmussen Report out today measuring public opinion which disputes the whole “Health Care System isn’t Working” narrative. http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/august_2009/confidence_in_u_s_health_care_system_has_grown_in_recent_months
By Kalispell Native on 08-03-09
Rasmussen has a reputation for skewing his polls, and therefore his reports, in favor of the GOP and their policies.
By Craig moore on 08-03-09
Kalispell Native, is Gallup in on it to? http://www.gallup.com/poll/121943/Benefits-Healthcare-Reform-Tough-Sell-Americans.aspx
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Bottom Line
These results do not coalesce into a terribly optimistic picture of Americans’ views of the perceived impact of healthcare reform:
* Whether the focus is access to healthcare or the quality of care, less than a majority of Americans are convinced that healthcare reform will be beneficial to either the country or to their own personal situations.
* Americans are less likely to believe healthcare reform will result in improvements to themselves personally than to the national healthcare situation.
* Americans believe that healthcare reform will increase costs rather than lower them, both nationally and for themselves.
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By ThinkAgain on 08-03-09
The US has very good medical care (see the line of people from other countries). And it’s costly. Let’s try to reduce costs by increasing competition, removing the huge litigation costs, and reducing no/low value activities (mostly government). Everybody needs to pay and people manage what is spent better than government. How about more insurance like homeowners coverage. You pay for routine care and have insurance, after deductibles, for big ticket items. Work on staying healthy to minimize your medical costs.
By Kalispell Native on 08-03-09
Gallup is not the gold standard of pollsters, either. Polls are coming out indicating different trends on the the healthcare issue. Regionality and age seem (to me) two factors causing the flux. But I’m not a statistician. It’ll be a polling rollercoaster during August.
By redhawk on 08-03-09
If I remember her life history, Ayn Rand died alone and broke, despised by most of the people who actually knew what a selfish nut case she was. Read her books…boring and cultpreachystupid. How’d that work for her? Fact. We live in society, starting from family units and working our way up through nations to the world. Behaving like a pack of jackals (to malign jackals) fighting over a carcass is probably not the best way to improve our world.
By woody on 08-03-09
go here to get some facts on the BS being pushed by the rightwingers out to destroy health care reform
whether it be thru fear, lies or just plain bribery….
http://pleasecutthecrap.typepad.com/main/2009/07/deconstructing-the-right-wing-lies-health-bill.html#more
By Craig moore on 08-03-09
Kalispell Native, in addition to Rasmussen and Gallup, there is also the recent Pew poll which completes a trifecta of bad news regarding public opinion towards reform. See: http://people-press.org/report/532/obamas-ratings-slide
“By a 44% to 38% margin, more Americans generally oppose than favor the health care proposals now before Congress. “
By emerson on 08-03-09
The public also thought that Real Estate was always going to go up…
None of this doesn’t change the fact that the current health care “system” will bankrupt America.
The Republicans and Insurance Corporations have become master propagandists exploiting fear of change while fighting for status quo.
Following Republicans has been terrible for America in the past. It will be terrible for America if they follow them on Helath Care.
By Craig moore on 08-03-09
Emerson, Obama has done more to instill fear in his Homer Stokes “broom of reform” than anyone else. Fact Check analyzes his failed TV sales job: http://factcheck.org/2009/07/obamas-health-care-news-conference/
Pointing to R’s doesn’t wipe away Obama’s own failings to sell his ree-form. What was he thinking to load his message with distortions, half-truths, dodges, and outright falsehoods?
By Craig moore on 08-03-09
In keeping with the Fact Check debacle, there is Obama speaking with a forked tongue: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-bY92mcOdk&eurl=http://electriccityweblog.com/?p=4603&cpage=1&feature=player_embedded
By Kalispell Native on 08-03-09
When the insurance industry spend $173 million in 6 months trying to protect their profits and corporate bureacracy from what is advantageous to the public you know health insurance reform is the right thing to do for WE THE PEOPLE.
THEY THE CORPORATIONS is not in Preamble to the Constitution. Why do you hate Americans?
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0809/25709.html
See the end of item one.
By Craig moore on 08-03-09
KN, Why the ridiculous insult to deflect from Obama having failed at his narrative to sell the people?
By emerson on 08-03-09
Just because the Republicans and their corporate insurance masters are spinning fantastic lies doesn’t mean that you can blame Obama for “having failed at his narrative to sell the people?”
When will you hold the Republicans and corporate insurance industry responsible for LYING?
By Craig moore on 08-03-09
Emerson, Obama is responsible for HIS lies, no one else. Stop the deflection.
By Kalispell Native on 08-03-09
Craig: I’m sure you were happy to deflect when defending Bush’s lies that got thousands of American and other countries’ soldiers killed.
By Craig moore on 08-03-09
It’s amazing that the last bastion of the left’s argument is “Yeah but but…Bush!”
I have NEVER defended Bush. Not going to start now or let you of the hook. Obama promised “hope and change” from the politics of the past including the Bush. If you wish to equate his behavior with Bush’s failures, I won’t dissuade.
By Kalispell Native on 08-03-09
I know. It’s nuts, isn’t it? Since the lasst bastion of the right was, and is, to say, “yeah but but…..Clinton!”. Now, you can quibble and nitpick about minor points to your heart’s content. But, that means you’re not paying attention to the big picture. The big picture is the battle between what’s best for people like you and me (generally) and corporations trying to maintain their ability to commit BOHICA on us folks.
Why do you prefer corporate masters over your neighbors?
By Craig moore on 08-03-09
KN, do you ever stop with the BS questions? Stop assuming you know ANYTHING about me. Again, you try another deflection to remove the spotlight from Obama’s lies.
By Kalispell Native on 08-03-09
Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder is treatable, Craig.
And why won’t you answer my direct questions? Why do you deflect to your OCD focal point? Stuff gets said, then later clarified. Both parties do it. It’s too bad that that happens. But, que sera sera. It’s the system we have.
By Craig moore on 08-03-09
KN, http://battalions2.wordpress.com/2006/06/21/good-old-liberal-debate-tactics/
I see shades of 2, 9, 10, 11, 12, 15, and 18 in your deflections. Try and stay on point.
By Kalispell Native on 08-03-09
Okay. I went back and watched your youtube link again. Then I paid more attention to the dates. Obama’s comments are not-so-artfully editted from now BACK to 2003. For crying out loud! How mendacious and self-serving can you get. The poster of that youtube has no credibility to me. I’m a fair-minded man, but that piece is a pure hit-job.
Then you look at his history and find out he is an Ayn Randian, tin soldier fake patriot. You, Craig, are hanging your hat, and your credibility, on that charlatan?
I pity you.
By a on 08-03-09
A poll…....I am reading through this blog and think
emerson, KN, woody and a want Universal Health Care.
Craig Moore, roark, by and by, want things to stay as is.
And Thinkagain is living in lalaland where the capitalist will behave themselves.
How did I do in reading this blog?
By Kalispell Native on 08-03-09
a: You did just fine. Then, if you go to the “Onus on Western…” thread you can add JB and moosebuggy to the list with Craig, roark, etc.
By emerson on 08-03-09
I think that if every other industrialized nation in the world can offer health care to ALL of its citizens, America can do the same.
This is primarily a moral question. Do we choose to follow the path of Ayn Rand morality of “everyone for themselves”—“Me First!” or do we choose to follow the morality of Christianity and most other major faith traditions that proclaim that “we are our brother’s keeper”.
It’s the choice America faces.
I find it ironic that the people and party that proclaim themselves as the most “Christian” - the most pious - are the same advocating for the non-Christian “everyone for themselves” philosophy.
By emerson on 08-03-09
One more thing—in “Thinkagain’s” world nobody is ever is affected by medical conditions based on things out of a persons control. There is no cancer, no genetic conditions, no birth defects, no heart conditions that are genetic…
Also, corporate insurance doesn’t run overhead rates that are 4X’s what public insurance programs run…
By Roark on 08-03-09
emerson, a, and Kalispell Native, demand every American have government controlled/rationed health care——at the point of a gun, or else.
Politicians in DC controlling your health decisions and future——-what could possibly go wrong? Sounds 100% moral and sound to me.
By a on 08-04-09
Huh? The fact that you brought a gun into this conversation makes what you have to say irrelevant. Guns are a a bully tactic and you know it. To quote an earlier post,“At a recent town hall meeting, a man stood up and told Representative Bob Inglis to ‘keep your government hands off my Medicare.’”
By ThinkAgain on 08-04-09
“If we can be so easily stampeded by rhetoric that neither the public nor the Congress can be bothered to read, much less analyze, bills making massive changes in medical care, then do not be surprised when life and death decisions about you or your family are taken out of your hands—and out of the hands of your doctor—and transferred to bureaucrats in Washington.” - Thomas Sowell
By woody on 08-04-09
These 2 questions are NEVER answered by the rightwing/libertarian side….
1. If we as a society have decided that our houses are worth having a single payer fire protection program for why are our bodies not afforded the same protections. Does the rightwing truly believe that property rights are more important than our LIVES?
2. Do you believe Wendell Potter’s testimony in front of congress stating that the health insurance industry denies treatment, cuts people off the insured rolls at a whim, is concerned only w/ profits not w/ delivery of care, and the health insurance market is controlled by 5 firms - of which many have the same owners behind the scenes.
As usual the rightwing won’t answer the real questions that may be tough to BS their way thru by denigrating those that ask the hard questions.
What say you righties?
By JB on 08-04-09
There is a lot of anecdotal evidence here suggesting a correlation between socialist viewpoints and bitterness, driven by financial jealousy…followed by the name calling and the questioning of sane behavior. Just admit it…we have the money, you don’t; that’s why you are so angry. You really should try anger management - unless you don’t have health insurance or can’t afford it out of pocket, that is…LOL…
By a on 08-04-09
Our roads, police, fire departments, libraries, garbage collections are ran by governments and I don’t feel much anger about that. I fact I am so comfortable, I take them for granted.
What I am angry about is the fact that I have a pre-existing condition that costs nothing medically, but I am stuck in an inappropriate and expensive insurance policy that is wrapped up with my employment. Which means I can never leave my job even if I get very sick.
Remember I am paying $707 a month for a $10,000 deducible. That also pays for the CEO on Montana’s BCBS (one state of 50) to have an annual salary of $4 million dollars. I pay my own medical bills. I pay for medicare, the military to have medical coverage, I pay for chips, through my taxes. I pay for employer based insurance through consumerism. All I want to to be included in the benefits that my paying brings.
A friend of mine just had a heart attack today. Instead of wondering how he was, I wondered if he had insurance and would he go bankrupt, anyway. He works for a living and is self-employed.
Blue Cross Blue Shield sends me 4 pieces of paper in an envelope that costs me $1.05 every month! They add insult to injury by adding a $2.00 processing fee. Can’t they just email to me and save me the $24 a year? No, I’ve asked and they keep sending me the bill that way.
Those are just a few of the reason I am angry.
It costs me $7.00 to trade stocks, what do you think it costs me to have my doctor deal with insurance?
That is what I am angry about.
By Roark on 08-04-09
a——let me clarify some basic concepts for you. First government has a legal monopoly on force. It is a big gun, or guns, that says do this or else. That is a fact. If one were to refuse to pay a tax or abide by some law or reg. and the police came for him there would indeed be e barrel of a gun directed at him dictating these options, pay, get arrested, or if you resist arrest get shot. Those are your options. As much as you may like it, that is how the enforcing the law works. In the free market you cannot use physical compulsion or threat of death to make somebody do something. I am trying to illustrate for you what will happen when the Obamacare becomes law; you will pay for it ultimately at the point of a gun. Your life is not yours when the government, which can be full of corrupt individuals anyhow, dictates the terms of what you will pay in taxes, to whom they will be paid, and your freedom of action.
By Roark on 08-04-09
a——your problems listed above are caused by government interference. The reason you are paying what you are for health insurance is because, as of now, the USA is not a truly free-market health care market.-all of us pay in our taxes to fund, medicaid, medicare, and other health based welfare programs. Also, the government now dictates certain terms to HMO’s and PPO’s regarding pricing structure and services fee’s, Not too mention the legion of rules and regs that currently suffocate the drug market and the options available in deciding your healthcare options. If you really want to lower the cost of your health care whilst raising its quality, the best thing to do is to get the government completely out of managing the health care market. The gov’t’ only function should be to enforce against force and fraud. At heart, this is a moral issue.-and morality ends where the point of a gun begins.
By emerson on 08-04-09
Roark - you forget a few things - a common malady for those with simplistic and extreme views:
1) This is a democracy with due process. People don’t show up at your door with guns for not paying a water bill, failing to pay taxes, or any other thing like that. Ayn Rand was a master of taking things to the extreme.
2) Unless you are advocating anarchy (which you keep saying you aren’t) - even your Objectivist world would have laws wouldn’t it?
3) How would the laws be enforced in an Objectivist world? Either you are an anarchist or not. You can’t have it both ways.
By a on 08-04-09
And I am angry because the right wing is clueless.
In the free market CEO’s get millions of dollars and are only accountable to their stock holders That to me, is force. The free market can sell our sea ports to Saudi Arabia and there is nothing we can do about it, except get Congress to act.
Act they did, at the request of the people.
Our government officials make a small fraction of what the Big Insurance Companies Executives make.
So, tell me about your insurance and who pays for it? I agree, our health care system is great. Our method of paying for it is sinister and underhanded.
By emerson on 08-04-09
Without any government regulation or involvement in health care this is what would happen (because this is what happened in history):
1) Health care insurance would only be affordable and obtainable by the relatively young and healthy. What company would choose to take on the liability of insuring someone that had a high probability of payout?
2) People who were older (say 65 or older) would have few or no options for health care. Before medicare - 40% of older Americans had NO health insurance.
3) Insurance companies would completely control who have absolute dictatorial power over whether they paid for a claim or not. If you sued an insurance provider, they would take their billions and crush you over time in the legal system.
4) No country in the world has successfully operated a civilized laissez fair health care system. Maybe that should be a clue?
By Roark on 08-04-09
emerson, the USA is certainly not a democracy. The USA is a Constitutional Republic. Big difference.
EMERSON said,“People don’t show up at your door with guns for not paying a water bill, failing to pay taxes, or any other thing like that.”——-are you kidding? google “tax and jail” and see what happens.
“A government is the means of placing the retaliatory use of physical force under objective control-i.e., under objectively defined laws…An objective law protects a country’s freedom; only a non-objective law can give a statist the chance he seeks: a chance to impose his arbitrary will-his policies, his decisions, his interpretations, his enforcement, his punishment or favor-on disarmed, defenseless victims…If physical force is to be barred from social relationships, men need an institution charged with the task of protecting their rights under an objective code of rules…This is the task of a government-of a proper government-its basic task, its only moral justification and the reason why men do need a government.”-Ayn Rand
By Roark on 08-04-09
EMERSON said,“In the free market CEO’s get millions of dollars and are only accountable to their stock holders That to me, is force.”—-How exactly?
EMERSON said,“Our government officials make a small fraction of what the Big Insurance Companies Executives make.”—-Your point being? Government gets all of its money from the private sector, btw.
By Roark on 08-04-09
emerson, I will answer your 3 queries.
“1) Health care insurance would only be affordable and obtainable by the relatively young and healthy. What company would choose to take on the liability of insuring someone that had a high probability of payout?.”—-How do you figure? In a free market health economy it is precisely the competition for your business that would cause an unlimited amount of choice and low costs for anyone of any age or health condition, etc to purchase insurance, pay as you go, etc etc etc. and let’s not forget the numerous private charities that would be willing and able to pay for medical expenses.
“2) People who were older (say 65 or older) would have few or no options for health care. Before medicare - 40% of older Americans had NO health insurance.” Again, where do you come up with that conclusion. Speculation like that is non-sensical because you cannot account for all the variables. Again, in the free market there would be competition for your business, that would include all ages and conditions. And let’s not forget about the numerous charities.
By Roark on 08-04-09
cont…“3) Insurance companies would completely control who have absolute dictatorial power over whether they paid for a claim or not.” Again, In a free market health economy it is precisely the competition for your business that would cause an unlimited amount of choice and low costs for anyone of any age or health condition, etc to purchase insurance, pay as you go, etc etc etc. and let’s not forget the numerous private charities that would be willing and able to pay for medical expenses.
“If you sued an insurance provider, they would take their billions and crush you over time in the legal system.”-how do you figure?
“4) No country in the world has successfully operated a civilized laissez fair health care system. Maybe that should be a clue?” see http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=9272
By a on 08-04-09
In a perfect world, everyone would play fair. There is just one catch…..human nature.
Sure, what you want is sweet but it just isn’t reality. People are greedy.
By Rawhide on 08-04-09
If the Obama health care plan is so good, then ask your Congressman if he will give up his own Federal Employee Health Benefits Program (FEHBP) for this new plan the democrats are trying to pass off on everyone else. Unlike Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, the VA, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, Amtrac and everything else the government has run into bankruptsy, the FEHBP is financially sound and provides its selective members with excellent health insurance. Ask your Congressman if Obama’s plan for us is as good as their own Congressional insurance plan. Will your Congressman give up his Federal Insurance Benefits to join the Obama plan they want to pass off on the rest of us? Better yet, why not just open up their exclusive health insurance program to all Americans.
By emerson on 08-04-09
Rawhide - the leading plan right now is to provide anyone in the public to opt-in to a pool just like the pool available to Federal Employees. The plan is exactly to provide that choice you are talking about.
By JB on 08-04-09
@rawhide - and guess who provides for FEHBP recipients? Blue Cross/Blue Shield…LOL…
By a on 08-04-09
None of them can loose their jobs without losing their insurance. God forbid, if they get diabetes. They risk the same risks we do. I bet they would like to see health care not so tied to a person’s job.
And the expense, it just goes up and up.
By Rawhide on 08-04-09
Members of the U.S. Congress, Representatives and Senators alike receive some of the best health care benefits in the country, much of it paid for with taxpayer dollars. Yet these same members seem unable - or unwilling - to extend similar protections to the rest of America.
Read more: http://public-healthcare-issues.suite101.com/article.cfm/health_care_for_the_us_congress#ixzz0NFBYE2RK
By woody on 08-04-09
JB said “Just admit it…we have the money, you don’t; that’s why you are so angry”
we are angry JB - because you rich “do nothings” have gamed the system and are robbing WE THE PEOPLE blind. The people who make the most money in this society are the ones WHO PRODUCE NOTHING!!!!!!!!
You remind me of the $600 toilet seat…....overpaid and full of shi**
we get it JB - you’re a rich SOB who could care less about anyone but your own bank account….......It seems to me you are not only a freeloader on society but also a anti-democratic greed monger.
Clinically it’s called being a sociopath - as defined by your own words of having zero empathy and being run by greed…..
in the days of the American revolution WE THE PEOPLE drug your lame butt into the streets and tarred and feathered you.
Oh where oh where are the good old days?
By emerson on 08-04-09
Oh JB isn’t a rich guy… he just plays one on the internet.
Roark isn’t a lone and rugged individual… he just plays one on the internet.
The probably with discourse in America is that the people you end up debating are basing their policies and premises on fantasies, mythologies and other unrealities. Belief is more important than fact.
The way “they think it should be” is more important than the way it really is. It’s like trying to discuss the scientific method with an Evangelical preacher from Alabama.
By JB on 08-04-09
@woody - at least you admit it, I’ll give you that…
@emerson - you’ll never know for sure…
By JB on 08-04-09
@woody - I suggest anger management then - if you can’t afford that, then buy boxing gloves and a punching bag, otherwise just run real fast around the block to work out all those negative feelings.
@emerson -
By JB on 08-04-09
I see a lot of online video where the constituents of the elected Dems are not laughing - they are angry. If the government couldn’t get the “cash for clunkers” right, do the people of this nation really believe that they are capable of running a national health care system?
Hopefully, the noises that people are making will stop this thing dead in its tracks. However, Washington does excel at spin…so don’t discount it yet.
By emerson on 08-04-09
Yeah - it is a lot of dumb white folks that are being manipulated by Washington right-wing lobby groups.
Check this out: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#32277121
By JB on 08-04-09
@emerson - oh yes, lets throw some more spin on and blame “right wing” groups for these disruptions. MSNBC is so good at that.
Frankly, I don’t care who is responsible for the disruptions - I just like seeing politicians put on the defensive. Having to be escorted out by 5 police officers says a lot to me.
In any event, we will be seeing a lot more of this kind of stuff happening - I guarantee it.
By emerson on 08-04-09
Maybe because the old white “##########” have no idea what democracy is. They are mobacrats - and not too particularly bright ones at that. The same kind of silly old fools who stood and shouted stupidly at the Little Rock Nine. The same kind of dimwhit that stands up and shouts “keep yer gubment hands off my medicare!”
By Craig moore on 08-04-09
It’s amazing how lefties like emerson exhibit the worst examples of classical bigotry. Ladies and gentlemen watch a master hurl his epithets.
By Kalispell Native on 08-04-09
No need to blame MSNBC, the astroturf frontmen are advertising their plans. Bought and paid for by AHIP.
http://www.joinpatientsfirst.com/bus-tour
By JB on 08-04-09
Thanks for the link, KN…very kind of you.
By Rawhide on 08-05-09
If the democrats thinks their National Health Care Reform Plan is so great for all Americans, then the current health care plan enjoyed by Congressmen, Senators, the President and all federal employees must be scrapped, with all federal employees required to be covered only under the new National Health Plan. Ask your congressman. Is he ready to give up his current plan for this new government plan?
By lp on 08-06-09
I agree with Rawhide. They should be on the same health care plan that they are trying to shove down our throats. But then again they will just get preferential treatment and sent to the head of the line.
By a on 08-06-09
I bet it will be a multi tiered system. The government will provide good medical care, and the rich will be able to either buy fancy insurance premiums or pay for the “frosting on the cake” out of their own pockets. Like the national health care plan probably won’t pay for a private room in the hospital if a double will work. I would like to think we’d all could get what we want, all the time, but that isn’t affordable.
Right now, I can have the best, the very best, I just can’t afford it. It will be nice to eliminate the hugh profits the insurance companies are making.
I would be happy just going to see the doctor, which I did yesterday, My hand is going to be fine. It cost me $239 to find out what I need to do to take care it. That is on top of the $8400 a year I pay for that $10,000 deductible.
IF there wasn’t so much crap riding on the backs of the doctor visit, I bet the cost for the visit yesterday would have been a fraction of what I paid, and the doctor’s office would still come out fairly.
By JB on 08-06-09
Another article about why universal health care doesn’t work:
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-tanner5apr05,0,2227144.story
By a on 08-06-09
What these politicians and many other Americans fail to understand is that there’s a big difference between universal coverage and actual access to medical care.
From JB’s article, it’s so true.
Thanks, JB, for sharing. we have great medical care in this country, it’s just administered for profit. We need actual access to medical care. My Canadian Friend can’t believe how insane what we have is. She takes access to health care for granted.
By a on 08-06-09
Oh, the statement the article makes about at least in the USA people at least has access to the emergency room, kind of misses the whole point of the debate.
By By and By on 08-06-09
@ a on - Your last remark is an English teacher’s nightmare! What in the world are you trying to say?
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