“1:17 p.m. A juvenile subject shot and killed several cows in a local pasture. The crime is currently under investigation.”

Anyone see anything wrong with this?  Are our gun happy Montanan’s taking notice here?  Did this idiot have this gun legally, and if so why, he’s obviously deranged!

Mitch I agree but let me add this.Where I grew up was rural everyone hunted it was nothing for us to take our shotguns or rifles on the bus put them in our locker at school then hunt after school at our friends house.Fast forward, I have four grown children three of them have the same respect as I for firearms.The fourth thinks it is ok to go around shooting up the neighborhood but I wouldn’t call him deranged this lack of respect has come from his peers which are also into this type of behavior and drugs.So all us gun toting Montanan’s are not all bad just the one’s you read about in the paper.!

I agree.  The high school parking lot was full of old trucks with guns in back window.  Times have changed, and with it respect for others and the world we live in seems to be disappearing also.  I do think this kid is deranged.  Whether it was drugs, peer pressure or a complete lack of common sense, this kid had no business with a gun in his hands. 
Also agreed that all gun toting Montanan’s are certainly nothing like the ones that make the news, but I do think it’s time the gun owners begin to think of doing a better job of policing their own.  When the gun rights are gone, it’s going to be because of this type of behavior, not because someone sitting in Washington wants to take away your rights.

Bad apples do spoil the whole bag I agree, gun rights are a touchy subject but are you willing to do the same when they start using vehicles to commit murder.I know that sounds silly but punishing every one for lack of a backbone in our criminal justice dept. for not enforcing the laws we have in place is a little silly as well.The cost of freedom I guess.

the subject here is not vehicles, it’s abuse of a gun.  The unacceptable use of a vehicle is another issue, but the same in the respect that anyone would allow another to drive off in a vehicle they are incapable of handling should have the common sense to step in.    The vehicle issue is one the gun owners like to bring up when gun abuse is the issue, but really has nothing to do with the topic.

I beg to differ sir, doing something reckless with anything that our little hands can use for indiscriminate harm is not something we have to litigate to death.I apologize for the vehicle comment I should have used the glass pickle jar see you can apply it to anything of course it is silly to think someone could harm someone else with any thing but a gun.Common sense states that you can’t always predict the outcome of life.

chances are you could defend yourself against an assailant with a picklejar, wooden spoon or what have you.  Harm is one thing, killing quite another.  I’m sure if the cattle had been assaulted with a pickle jar, they too would still live.  Being the only one with a loaded gun in your hand is a pretty good indication that something (or someone) is going to die, and if that gun is in your hand, that seems that would be your plan.

I’ve never heard of anyone being killed in a drive-by picklejarring.  Sorry kokonuts….I’m with Mitch on this one.

I guess I didn’t put it very well or maybe I misunderstood mitch but I thought he was alluding to tighter gun control my point was that we have many gun control laws on the books but enforcement is not always there. Tighter laws will not stop stupid.I used the other items for comparison only as props for showing that a person can be stupid with any item he or she wishes.Including “ballpeen hammers”

First of all, stay away from my ballpeens. 

When ballpeens are outlawed, only outlaws will have ballpeens.  You can take my ballpeen away from me when you pry it out of my cold dead ballpeen fingers.

There’s enough laws on the books regarding ballpeens. They just need to be enforced.


(that goes for my picklejars too)

What’s your opinion on heatseeker missiles? Do I have the right to keep them?  (they’re arms)  What about teflon coated cop killer bullets?  Should Crips and Bloods be allowed to buy guns at the gun shows using the gun show loopholes ...bypassing the usual background checks?

The comparison is always made by the NRA regarding autos killing people. Autos are licensed as are the drivers.  Should we do that for guns also?

First of all ballpeen owners would never give up their right to own a smiting tool.How would they ever be able to smite gods creatures.
Blue enough with the auto comparison lets move past it.I tried to point out something I did not realize you were NRA phobic that the mere mention of cars sends you into ballpeen slather.
There are laws already on the books for all the things you mentioned they are simply not enforced adding more laws is just going to punish the honest law abiding gun owner.I do not always agree with the NRA scare tactics but it is just as extreme as the other side makes it.Finally all new gun sales are registered which is the same as a license now without the driving test.

Mr K.  You’re the one that uses the auto analogy first of all. I’m just following up on “your” past comments using the auto comparisons.

The NRA’s all or nothing policy…refusing to bend on the “definition” of arms..because it will head down the slippery slope of gun restriction…ie: teflon cop killer bullets and the loopholes in the gun show laws…fly in the face of what you’re claiming.  The gun shows on the East Coast are full of gang members buying weapons…legally…thanks to the loopholes and the NRA backing of those loopholes.

I respect the rights of hunters.  I own guns, but it’s not about taking the guns away from pheasant hunters.  It’s about giving the police the chance to come home safe to their families after work.

Whoa, slow down there cowpoke.The teflon “cop killers” are outlawed.The loopholes in gun shows would not stop a criminal from owning a gun.I am not a member of the NRA for my own reasons therefore the analogy of an auto was not taken from there playbook.Bluedog if you take the laws we have on the books and prosecute every felony infraction with a weapon to the 10th degree maybe that would work but it still would not stop criminals from owning guns.Therefore why legislate more laws on law abiding citizens.Do you not know that we have a lot of gun thefts right here in Montana if you were going to make a lot of money and little chance to get caught where would you take those weapons to be sold a larger city of course.Who would buy those weapons other thieves,drug dealers,and gang members.It happens all over the country all the time with the risk of being ballpeened I say do not be so naive.

Guns don’t need to be stolen from homes in Montana when they can be purchased legally ..thanks to loophole laws .  The East Coast gun shows are filled with gangsters buying guns..no strings attached ....thanks to the NRA.  They even brazenly wear their gang colors while purchasing the guns. 

To the “strict” interpreters of the 2nd amendment…“arms”... are what?  NRA says you can’t draw a line…you’ll infringe on their rights.  Is a bazooka ..“arms”?  Sounds like it to me.  Can I buy a bazooka?  No. Are my rights being infringed on?  Must be, according to the logic of the NRA’s strict interpretation of the second amendment.  Why are my teflon bullets outlawed? LaPierre had a hissy fit when that was brought up and we had to listen to the slippery slope argument.

I like cops.  I want them safe. Let’s not be helping the Crips and Bloods.  NRA needs to come down to earth.

Blue dog four of my friends one was my best man are retired from the force.The best man’s father was also cop.What you are talking about has nothing to do with crime one of the biggest things gangs are doing right now are black market arms procurement this includes all sorts of surplus military weaponry ie.fully automatic weapons the list goes on.Banning sales at these gun shows is not going to stop the gangs because they can get better weapons through your local arms dealers who wants a used handgun from a gun show when you can buy a fully auto from some arms dealers.Oh and by the way all four of those cops are lifetime members in the NRA.

...but you didn’t answer any of my “rhetorical” questions.  Is a bazooka arms?  Doesn’t the 2nd amendment protect my rights to own arms?  Are bazooka’s illegal?  If so…aren’t my rights being violated?

I’m glad to see you have lots of friends that are cops…in a small town. Detroit and Kalispell are not on the same planet..(Thank God )

Nobody said anything about banning sales at the gun shows. What was actually said was “banning the loopholes” at these shows.  You’re reading into my statements.

As for teflon coated bullets already being outlawed. Simply not true .  In some states maybe…but still most states you can buy them. You’re confusing the laws on teflon coated bullets to the law banning “armor piercing” bullets.  It’s different.

benEzra’s Journal
The banned “teflon coated bullets” were made of fairly hard STEEL
Posted by benEzra in General Discussion
Wed Mar 25th 2009, 10:13 PM
(or sometimes hardened bronze) and did indeed need a lubricating coating to avoid excessive rifling wear. You’re an engineer, so think about unlubricated steel sliding against unlubricated steel at 500-1000 degrees and 800 mph at the steel-steel interface, when the steel parts in question (bullet and barrel) are a tight compression fit, and then think about that happening over and over and over in quick succession without allowing the barrel to cool. And the failure mode isn’t the wearing out of the bore surface, but the rounding off of the leading edge of the rifling, which is small and sharp.

The anti-friction coating was irrelevant to Kevlar penetration, as bullets do not penetrate Kevlar by slipping between the fibers, but by overloading and breaking the net. Unlike conventional handgun bullets, the hard bullets in question did not flatten against a vest, but held their shape and concentrated the impact on a small area (and very few fibers), thereby increasing the per-fiber load by an order of magnitude and allowing the bullets to potentially penetrate vests otherwise rated to stop them.

Handgun bullets made of hard materials like that were banned in 1986, and the ban was extended to cover small and intermediate rifle calibers in 1994. And yes, a teflon coating was irrationally added to the 1986 “cop killer bullet” ban.
Taken off of “The democratic underground”
If a question is rhetorical why do you need an answer.My answer will not change your view so it is a mute point.

So ....teflon coated bullets….outlawed or not?

Thanks for the engineering report, however…you still didn’t get to the point of the bullets actually being banned.  They are NOT in the majority of states.  Google Teflon coated bullets.

Will wait anxiously for your response to the second amendment question regarding bazooka example.  (I’ll accept a rhetorical response to a rhetorical question

Bluedog it was not the teflon, it was the bullet. The teflon is a lubricant for ammunition that was made from a super hard material that has been banned completely except for law enforcement purposes you can still buy teflon and teflon related coatings on ammunition but not the bullet in question.Re-read the article it tells you about the bullet.All,absolutely all of those bullets are banned from sale in the united states.

“you can still buy teflon and teflon related coatings on ammunition but not the bullet in question”  That doesn’t make sense does it?  Google “teflon coated bullets”.  The fact is, you can still buy teflon coated bullets in most states.  Sorry..a fact is a fact.

You’re confusing the armor piecing bullet ban with teflon coated bullets. To quote:  ” The federal ban on armor piercing ammunition uses ony the composition of the bullet’s core to determine legality”

PS:  How’s the bazooka answer coming along?

O.K. bluedog what part of the article or my letter do you not understand the cop killer bullets that you were talking about are no longer for sale. The coatings burn off either in the barrel or shortly after leaving the barrel.You can still buy teflon coated ammunition just not the bullet which was the problem.A lot of bullets are coated with a lubricant to ease their traveling in the barrel.Bazookas are great for small game if you have all the necessary federal paper work to own one but if you do not have the federal paper work it is illegal to own.

Good bazooka answer.

But isn’t it against the law to have a bazooka…period?  I believe so, and I think that my right to bear arms are being infringed upon ...according to the strict interpretation of the second amendment that the NRA is so in love with. Isn’t it a slippery slope when we start diddling with these things?  That’s the NRA stance at least. If we ban bazooka’s, why can’t we ban 30:30’s?? They’re both arms.  Again.  I’m speaking rhetorically. (I love 30:30’s)

So what you’re saying is Teflon coated bullets are still for sale , unlike your earlier post that stated teflon bullets had been banned.  I consider that a concession on your part?
Apology accepted.  You’re a true gentleman.

What is your opinion on Teflon coated picklejars?

As long as they are kosher.The media hype over this ammunition deemed it teflon cop killers it was never the coating it was the actual projectile which I assumed you knew the difference sorry no concession lol.Bazookas or M1 rocket launchers can be bought online it is the actual projectile, the rocket which is hard to get and illegal unless federally allowed.

Have you tried to buy a bazooka online?  Should we be concerned?  If the ammunition is outlawed…isn’t that the infringement on my God given right to bear arms?  Sounds like it to me.  (I’ll contact my local NRA chapter and have them help me fight for my rights.)

I believe you are misstating me when you say I don’t know the difference between the “bullet” and the “teflon”.  If you check a few posts back you will see I stated that exactly. I’ll repeat to save your scroll button…“federal ban on armor-piercing ammunition uses only the COMPOSITION of the bullet’s CORE to determine legality”  (SC code 16-23-520)  BATF Sorry… teflon coated bullets are available in most states unlike your original statement.  Just a fact.

I still accept your concession on the teflon bullets….whether you like it or not. 

Cordially, Bluedog

the ONLY true right God has given you is “once you’re born -  you gonna die”......God has promised you NOTHING else.

Now if we are talking about rigths given by MAN -  such as the US Constitution and the 2nd amendment - there is a strong argument that this amendment was meant to be used in place of a “standing army” during times of peace -  as a standing army in times of peace is a sure-fire way to lose our democracy…...

as we can see by the power of the military-industrial complex.  The military is the largest spending item in the budget…...

and the USA - has over 730 foreign military bases spread around the world….

and the good old USA spends more money on the war and military than the rest of the world COMBINED.

but you all want to cry about your bullets…..

If it was really about the Constitution with the rightwingnuts then they would have raised a cry about the illegal patriot act -  or the illegal war in iraq -  or the spying on Americans…..or the holding of prisoners in Gitmo….

but they didn’t -  until after the fact that is…...

because I hate to break it to you and the other wackos like cheny and his idiot daughter   but the Constitution doesn’t only apply to Americans - It was meant to apply to everyone.

but the rightwingers are only concerned with THEIR freedoms -  they are TOTALLY into negating MY freedoms.

Woody:

“the ONLY true right God has given you is “once you’re born -  you gonna die”......God has promised you NOTHING else”

Heh-heh.  Most religions say he’s promising A LOT more than that, and they may be right.

I agree with your view on the M-I complex.  A huge waste of America’s resources.

I’m going to post that Bacevich link one last time…It’s just
it’s THAT good.

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/08152008/watch.html

and soooo, back to original post on this thread.  what happened to nutcase that shot the cattle??

...he’s staying over at Dusty’s place till the heat dies down.

One immature punk with a gun? American corporate weapons are killing thousands of innocent civilians.

focus billy

Apparently billy’s over at dusty’s place also.  Probably having a lunatic convention or something.