Comments on: Montana Dropout Rate Among Worst in Country
By Craig moore on 07-28-10
Wow, what a waste to chain students to their desks. How about some creative thinking and building on the success of other states: www.insightschools.net
Notice that Colorado and California both have Insight programs, and they are finalists in the Race To The Top. Montana failed under Juneau’s leadership to make that list. Why? IMHO, too much window dressing of status quo without substantive reform.
By redhawk on 07-28-10
Passing a law is sure to make things better *sarcasm inserted*. How about improving our school curriculum and programs instead? We’ve spent enormous amounts of money on new buildings and teachers, so why are kids leaving the school system in such numbers? After they graduate they will be leaving the area anyway, since the job market here is not good for new graduates, so they need to be prepared.
By MontanaTrace on 07-28-10
These numbers sure don’t jive with other sources on the internet.http://www.eduinreview.com/blog/tag/dropout-rate/
By Kalispell Native on 07-28-10
Trace: MT is listed with a grad rate in the 78-91% range. 100 minus 9 equals 91. Seems to jibe to me.
Also, your graphic was posted in ‘08.
By MontanaTrace on 07-28-10
Is the two year old graph with data going to be skewed by that much? Why are the numbers so vastly different?
From Principal Carlson, Whitefish HS, “........ we have a graduation rate of 97%. Our composite ACT score of college bound seniors is 24.4 compared with the state average of 22.0 and nationally 21.1. Eight of our graduates currently attend Military Academies, four of these from the class of 2009. Last spring, our seniors were awarded $ 3.1 million in student scholarships, this averages out to $51,666 per senior applying for scholarships. Bulldog graduates are spread throughout the state and country pursuing post high school education opportunities. The list of schools, universities and colleges our students attend is impressive.”
I’d like to compare studies. The numbers don’t make sense.
Oops! It is jibe.
By MontanaTrace on 07-28-10
44th worst in the country?
I just don’t believe that.
By senator blutarski on 07-28-10
I find these figures hard to believe. Throwing money at the problem is not a solution unless parents are actively involved in their children’s education. When I taught school I got the impression that many parents look at the schools as a free babysitting service and nothing more. In Philly the schools have a dropout rate of almost 70% and the violence in the schools is astounding! The Kalispell area has some pretty good schools in my opinion.
By inthemiddle on 07-28-10
Kalispell schools, based on grades 9 throuh 12 have about a 6% dropout rate. This is one of the worst for AA and A schools in the state. We have one of the best curriculums and some of the best teachers. Then why such a high rate? I personally feel it is because of the culture of the area. To many people, education is overated or they feel its not needed. A lot of kids quit school to go into the woods or construction. They work for their parents and most of their fathers dropped out so its ok if their sons do also. They did just fine without a high school diploma so why does their kid need it. You can blame the administrators, state officials and teachers, but until this culture is changed the drop out rate will remain high. Put the blame where it belongs, on the parents and a society that allows it.
By dippy on 07-28-10
Craig moore - I agree that Montana needs to be looking at new ways to deliver education, but I don’t think California should be the model for anything. Montana students have outscored California students on the ACT, SAT, and virtually every other standardized test for decades. Montana is also piloting it Montana Digital Academy this year. Check it out at www.montanadigitalacademy.org The only concern I have with the online method is that it often isn’t as effective with low-motivated students or students who don’t have parental support. These are often the students who drop out without an alternative education plan. However, it may work for some.
Additionally, Kalispell has been proactive with its drop out issues. By setting up alternative schools like Bridge and Laser, students have a different route through high school. Finally, Peter Fusaro, principal at FHS, reports that the SD5 staff made drop out prevention their number one goal last year dropping the rate to 4%. Not perfect, but better. Still, much can be done to improve.
Sadly, race to the top is an step backwards for Montana schools.
By Thomas on 07-29-10
I’d view any figures from School District 5 with as being unreliable. They have a tendency to manipulate the numbers to mnake the administration look good. They also change the way they calculate the figures so a true comparison is not really valid.
The community of Kalispell does not monitor what is going on in our school district very well. We have some good board members but the majority of the board is a “rubber stamp” board and does not hold the administration accountable.
I do believe that the parents are primarily responsible for the success or failure of the students but our district needs to do better.
By Craig moore on 07-29-10
Dippy, thank you for the MDA link and respectful remarks. MDA looks to be a step in the right direction to offer an innovative approach, but it appears only to be a half-measure. I didn’t know this program existed. Getting old. I am very concerned with reasoning that seems to suggest that Montana should rest on its laurels when comparing its students to other states. Good ideas and structural changes to “amp” up the educational experience are not limited by recent failings. California is making those changes with its Insight program and it’s RTTT bid. Keep in mind that winning RTTT funding is not the goal, it is only the bait to make structural change. The money enables the effort.
As to the drop out matter, the real issue is missed. The focus should not be on graduation rate, but rather on enabling and empowering young adults to enter life on their own having a firm foundation of critical reading, thinking, communication, reasoning, math skills. Go here: http://opi.mt.gov/Reports&Data;/index.html#gpm1_9 choose district level and Flathead HS. We get Reading: State 82% District 76%. Math: State 63% District 54%.
Even the State performance is atrocious. Comparing to other state’s dismal performance misses the mark.
By Nicholesgs on 07-29-10
Wow, as every one else I to think those number are wrong. I don’t know who is to blame but I am sure the cuts in budget for arts, music, and sports don’t help much. These are the activities our kids need to excell. I think the numbers need to be re-added.
By Vud on 07-29-10
dippy said:
” Sadly, race to the top is an step backwards for Montana schools. “
I’d be interested to know why it is a atep backwards, in your opinion.
Craig -
I’m largely inclined to agree with you on the subject(s) of RTTT. (Compare CO’s Phase 2 proposal to MT’s - in a competitive application process CO comes out far ahead in my opinion and
THAT’s due in large part to CO’s participation in a peer-reviewed Phase ONE appliation process.
Also while the unions (hooray!) do seem to support RTTT now - they did perform a rather whiplash-ish about face it seems. That’s OK - but you do have to understand that it DID happen - and why.
However, my question to you Craig is this…
Do you have any qualms about the Insight program, beyond dippy’s very relevant concerns…Given that it is run by The Apollo Group; the group that is behind The University of Phoenix and others?
Here’s one of my, possibly unfounded concerns:
I’m unclear, at this point, exactly how Insight makes it’s money (tuition free, they say) though I know it enjoys heavy government subsidies and apparently wants you to buy a computer from them..
Now, If I were a for-profit education company I would definitely be looking for a way to feed my (NOT tuition free) university programs and continuing the revenue stream for another 4 years. A good way to do this is would be to ‘graduate’ the high schoolers myself.
They do have to adhere to government educational standards qualify for their funds - I understand that. But where is the incentive to reach beyond those standards and not just educate for acceptance into one of ‘their’ universities?
I also have to reiterate what others have stated…
Nothing will make a lot of difference if PARENTS aren’t fully engaged in the process.
Also including a link to FRONTLINES “College Inc.” program:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/collegeinc/view/
By Vud on 07-29-10
Aaaaaah -
That Frontline link isn’t quite as straight forward as I’d hoped.
By dippy on 07-29-10
OK, backwards may be too harsh, because NCLB and RTTT have successfully forced schools to address their approach to the lowest level students. My biggest concern with both NCLB and RTTT is that the tests are heavily focused only on the simplest set of skills that can be tested via multiple choice. “A firm foundation of critical reading, thinking, communication, reasoning” is hard to assess with most of testing being done with M/C. Additionally, with only Science, Math, and Reading being tested, the schools are following the path of reducing time spent on music, art, P.E., civics, history, and geography. These disciplines are critical to being a well-rounded citizen. By the way, Diane Ravitch, one of the trailblazers on school accountability, has written an interesting book on this issue. I am providing a link to one interview. http://www.learningfirst.org/diane-ravitch-broader-bolder-approach-accountability.
@Craig Moore-I agree with you that the drop-out rate is FAR less important than what is being taught. I was just commenting on that because it what the article was about. I found the OPI site really informative. I am actually encouraged by the progress made in reading, but I am forced to agree with the characterization of the math scores as “atrocious.” Still not convinced that we should follow California.
Finally (and boy, this is getting wordy), I think reasonable teacher accountability and testing are a good start, but only if the test is well written and is one variable in assessing a teacher’s effectiveness. However, at some point we need to add some student accountability to the tests. Currently, there is absolutely no consequence in Montana for a student who simply blows off the assessment. My final concern is my lack of faith in a federal government to set up a successful criteria after the massive problems in NCLB (no exceptions for special ed students, 100% proficiency by 2014, not tracking progress of an individual class).
By Craig moore on 07-29-10
Vud, I’m not sure that all states do it the same way. However this is the Washington program: http://wa.insightschools.net/FAQs/Online-Learning-Technology.aspx
Their program is run and funded by the state. Students are issued computers. There is much helpful info at that WA site.
By Nicholesgs on 07-30-10
If we don’t support our kids as a community with the schools there will be no way these kids will make it in other states. Working McDonald’s and lumber mills is where they will be working. I don’t know to many parents that just want their kid to settle because they did it with out proper education. Encouragement and striving for a realistic goal in life is what we as parents can do for them.
By Kalispell Native on 08-02-10
t or c: Care to show the quote of either of us saying such a thing?
Congratulations. You managed to quell your fetish for a few days.
By inthemiddle on 08-02-10
t or c, you would make George Orwell proud.
By JCW on 08-02-10
The people who are getting their panties-in-a-bunch over those “numbers” don’t seem to realize that Montana has HIGHER STANDARDS of educations than other states with allegedly higher grad rates.
I wouldn’t worry about it too much. The numbers are so skewed by so many different factors that they really mean very little.
By kalgal on 08-03-10
They will refute the numbers and then ask for more money. School is about learning, not fancy buildings and all the extras. Sports should be pay to play ($25 for an entire school year). Get rid of the fluff classes. Get rid of lazy teachers and the heavy admin. and parents need to encourage and be involved in keeping the kids in school
By MontanaTrace on 08-03-10
The best students almost always have a strong support system at home. Just as evident for that success, is that most failing students come from nonsupportive homes. Yes, there are exceptions.
Sure there are bad teachers but top students learn in those classes too. Why? They have been taught there are no excuses for less than excellence.
In college, I took a freshman math class in a theater of 400 teenage students. The teacher didn’t make the difference for those that passed or failed. It was the student and the learning foundation he/she brought to row 78, seat 26. Math 101. (This and Freshman English were the courses that thinned the herd.)
Leaning begins at home. So parents, it doesn’t matter if the teacher sucks, the kids pick on your little Johnny, the text books are confusing, the classroom is disruptive, the class is too late in the day, there’s too much or too little homework, we need the right to go off campus for lunch, homecoming is this week and you don’t have a date, or even if dad has lost his job or the parents fight and want a divorce, etc…........ Mom and Dad (together or separately), it’s your job to send your child ready to learn in any environment. Other students are doing just fine. Why? In those homes, there is a strong support system and a value system that instills that it is important to be a focused and good learner. The future depends on it. Or, you can blame everyone else for the failure.
By kalispelling bee on 08-03-10
Outstanding post, MontanaTrace. I do disagree, though, that a disruptive classroom in inconsequential. It doesn’t matter how supportive parents are if a student leaves the classroom with nothing substantial to take home. An hour spent in trying to quell disruptions is an hour in which no instruction takes place.
My question is this: What of those students who do not have parents with high expectations, supervision and support? Do we write them off or try to find a way to educate them, also?
By MontanaTrace on 08-03-10
I did not write that a disruptive classroom is inconsequential. You’re right, it makes for a terrible learning environment. Put enough disruptive students an a classroom with a teacher that is ill-prepared, not in control and not respected and we have the formula for dramatic failure. Even so, there are those students that will overcome this situation and succeed. Unfortunately, this is where marginal students, that are mildly or only internally supported, that would have had a chance for success, fall on the down side of the learning and the earning of passing marks that could have created positive reinforcement. The disruptive classroom will be the downfall for the fragile student.
Students without a strong infrastructure will always be in our schools. Even the best trained, energetic teachers can be overwhelmed by the numbers. Parents need to come to accepting their responsibility. Dream on. That just ain’t gonna happen!
Societies ills are unsolvable at the classroom level, yet we keep blaming this reflection of society on the educational system. They are our scapegoats. Like it or not, there will always be those that make things happen, those that watch things happen and those that say, “What happened?!”
Do we bring down the top because we can’t bring up the bottom? Should our educational mission statement aim for one level where all receive passing grades? (“This program will enhance self esteem.”) Do we establish a lowest common denominator? Maybe we should also redistribute the wealth.
In the 50’s and 60’s it was understood that there would be some dropouts. It was a scarlet letter for the parents, students and educators. Numbers were as different as were their causes. Now it’s just understood…...........even though never acceptable.
Fixing the dropout problem starts with fixing society. We can’t do that but feel some relief in blaming the numbers on bad teachers and poor curriculum standards. More politics here than reality. The feds are constantly creating new programs that local tax dollars later have to support. “We need better teachers, better textbooks, better programs, multi-lingual, if the students can’t speak English, make the teacher speak______, etc.”
The colleges say standards have to be lowered because the high schools send unprepared students, who were sent garbage by the middle school, who was dumped on by the elementary, who blames the kindergarten teachers, who blames preschool, who blame the parents. Skreech! Hit the brakes there. The government/politicians won’t blame the parents because they are voters. “Don’t tell me my kid is a train wreck because of me. It’s the teachers, the system.” Yes, vote for Sam the Man and he’ll turn water into wine!
continued..
By MontanaTrace on 08-03-10
continued…
You want to spend big bucks to make positive impact on the results of education. Start not with merit pay, the blame game or a cry for better teachers…............. rebuild the foundation. Sure, there’s plenty of room for improvement in our school system and that needs constant attention but let’s quit kidding ourselves and get a mirror and look at the real dropout. We are the dropout that needs educational reform.
The views expressed in the comments section do not reflect those of the Beacon.