Comments on: Self Defense Bill Clears House
By Teach on 02-09-09
People, are we free men and women or freakin serfs? Carry any thing you feel competent to carry. For all I care, throw an M60 over your shoulder and enjoy a work out going from point A to point B. If your child is mature and a seasoned gun slinger..throw a nice iron in their backpack..what? the school board pansies going to expel every kid in the district? I carried throughout my high school years…I carried teaching in the hood..double carried during the LA riots. F the Rahm Emanuel pukes of the world, F the Obama/Feinstein dirtbag lying sakes of vomit selling out this country and trying to make all grovel before a world government cabal of megalomaniacs. We aren’t Brazil, and we aren’t Argentina, we aren’t Mexico..we are America. You cops out there better remember what you swore allegiance to before sweating your fellow citizen. By now most everyone has figured out the leadership in this country has been sold out to foreign interests and hasn’t represented the interests of Americans for decades. Quit sending your kids to die in foreign entanglements, quit paying income tax.
By Citizen on 02-09-09
“Laws that forbid the carrying of arms..disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed one.” - Thomas Jefferson quoting Cesare Beccaria, Criminologist in 1764. That was 230 years ago. -Thomas Jefferson
“The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it.” -Thomas Jefferson
The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.-Thomas Jefferson
When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. We hold these truths to be self-evident; that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; that whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.-Thomas Jefferson
Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms [of government] those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.-Thomas Jefferson
Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty.-Thomas Jefferson
I think myself that we have more machinery of government than is necessary, too many parasites living on the labor of the industrious.-Thomas Jefferson
A free people [claim] their rights as derived from the laws of nature, and not as the gift of their chief magistrate.-Thomas Jefferson
The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first.-Thomas Jefferson
I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.
Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have ... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases.
Was the government to prescribe to us our medicine and diet, our bodies would be in such keeping as our souls are now.
LISTEN TO THOSE WHO WROTE THE BILL OF RIGHTS AND FOUNDED THIS NATION!!!
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COME AND GET THEM!
The Greek phrase Mol?n labe! (????? ????; approximate Classical Greek pronunciation [mol???n labé], Modern Greek [mo?lon la?ve]), meaning “Come and take them!”, is a classical expression of defiance reported by Plutarch in response to the Persian Army’s demand that the Spartans surrender their weapons. It corresponds roughly to the modern equivalent English phrase “over my dead body” or “bring it on”. It is an exemplary use of a laconic phrase.
By southerner on 02-10-09
This is excellent news, I hope the Senate has the sense to represent the will of the people of Montana and pass this legislation intact.
The idea of ‘concealed carry permits’ or any other kind of permit for the people to possess weapons affirms the government’s belief that it alone is the arbiter of the right to weapons.
BS!
We the people were created with certain rights. Central to these rights is the right to be armed as a means to protect ourselves from those who would forcibly take our rights from us.
I’d no sooner accept a state issued ‘weapons permit/license’ than I would a book reading license, walking license, church attendance permit or any such thing.
If I have a right to possess weapons, no permission slip is required.
Nice to see a move to change state law to line up with logic.
By JB on 02-10-09
To argue that this bill would be responsible for creating a “vigilante society” is ridiculous…that is the argument of a would be oppressor. If anything, this bill would serve to reduce violent crime where a firearm is involved; that has been proven time and again in virtually all instance where gun laws favored the law abiding citizen. Since law enforcement has no obligation to protect citizens, the responsibility of self protection falls on all of us. The language in this bill was specifically crafted to place the burden of responsibility on law enforcement to justify their actions, which is the primary reason they are opposed to it. This bill will keep police officers and sheriffs department personnel from abusing “reasonable suspicion” clauses that have kept more people from legally carrying a firearm in this state. There have been way too many cases of harassment for legally carrying a firearm by law enforcement; this bill will give the private law abiding citizens an equalizer when carrying legally. I would not be surprised in the least if this bill is instrumental in the drop in violent crime in Montana. For an analysis of this bill by section, here is a link to the webpage that does exactly that: http://progunleaders.org/Self-defense/
Its disappointing that certain sections were removed, especially the one about returning firearms that were seized by law enforcement as well as the right of self protection where an employer fails to provide it when necessary.
By Oldshooter on 02-10-09
Let’s think this through a second. First off: Vigilantes are individuals who take the law into their own hands by deciding who they think should be punished and then carrying out the punishment themselves without recourse to the law (sounds a lot like the BATFE, but I digress). There is clearly nothing in this proposed law that would permit, or even condone, such behavior, hence the “vigilante argument” is just a red herring designed to incite unwarranted fear in the public mind. Secondly: OF COURSE the police and DAs are against it! It would require them to assume people were innocent unless they did a thorough job of proving otherwise, which makes their job much harder. For example, at present the DA is usually evaluated on the basis of how often (what percentage of his cases) he wins a conviction. Too few and he gets canned for being either incompetent or “soft on crime.” So how does a hard working DA increase his “hit rate?” Well, if you are forced to hire a lawyer to defend yourself (since you are currently treated as though you are guilty unless you can prove otherwise), you will be MUCH more likely to “cop a plea” even though you are innocent of wrongdoing, simply because you want to avoid the expense (which most of us can’t afford) of a trial, and the possibility that you might lose. So you plead guilty to some offense, in return for a light punishment, say 6-months probation or some such tidbit, thereby giving the DA an easy “win,” which increases his “conviction” rate and makes both him and the judge look good. You, of course, may have just made yourself a convicted felon, or something else (domestic violence?) that makes you ineligible to own or carry a gun in the future, but who cares? Eveyone comes out of this looking good except you, and you are after all, just a citizen, and a lone citizen at that. The public can easily be convinced to view you as a criminal who shouldn’t be allowed to have a gun. No one will remember that you were just defending yourself or your family, two years after the trial. So the fact that Police or attorney’s don’t like the bill is simply caused by them acting in their own best interest (which is not YOUR best interest). Their opposition is actually a GOOD sign that you should support the bill.
By Bulldada on 02-10-09
So the bill goes into it’s third reading tomorrow. Then what? Does anyone know what steps must be completed before this bill becomes law?
By JB on 02-10-09
Actually it went through its 3rd reading today, which passed 60-40. If you want to track the progress of this bill, here is a link:http://laws.leg.mt.gov/laws09/LAW0203W$BSRV.ActionQuery?P_BLTP_BILL_TYP_CD=&P_BILL_NO=&P_BILL_DFT_NO=LC0672&Z_ACTION=Find&P_SBJ_DESCR=&P_SBJT_SBJ_CD=&P_LST_NM1=&P_ENTY_ID_SEQ=
It will have to pass through the Senate, then after some bureaucracy, it is signed by the Governor into law.
By RKBA on 02-11-09
I don’t think this falls into some people’s “common sense gun laws” category. But HB 228 is common sense to me and most Montanans. We are citizens, not subjects.
-E-
Lewistown
By Redbob on 02-11-09
While he is certainly to be commended for introducing this bill, beware Rep. Krayton Kerns’ typically legalistic approach: “Kerns said he expects the Senate may seek to trim back some of the initiatives in his bill. The Republican said he is open to some fine-tuning.
“If we need to tweak some of it again, let’s do it,” Kerns said.
Before you know it, his pals will have “fine-tuned” the very essence of this bill away!
By Dan on 02-11-09
Thank God for Montana. I wish Texas would take notice.
By oregonian on 02-11-09
this law will not create a bunch of vigilantes. In the state of Oregon you have the right to use deadly force to protect not only your personal safety but even your property. So if someone breaks into your car you have the right to shoot them. If the city slic kers in oregon can handle that kind of law then I’m sure montanans could. This bill doesn’t go far enough. Like the govenor said “gun control means hitting what you aim at”
By Donald Ragsdale on 02-15-09
The fact that some County Attorneys and law enforcement officials oppose this bill is prima facie evidence that it IS needed in Montana. I’ve been raked over the coals by the County Attorney for shooting an agressive DOG on my own property!
By Brute on 02-15-09
That this bill is under review again showcases how far removed from the founders intent we’ve deviated. The “right” to carry open or concealed is a no brainer. Registration is tyranny and a precursor of confiscation. No one would proclaim that the federal government even pretends to represent the People, yet, perhaps Montana can create a backlash that will serve to remind the rest of the nation what it means to be FREE..to be AMERICAN!
By JB on 02-16-09
You nailed it, Brute…this bill is really about freedom, the freedom to carry a handgun and to be able to use it in self defense without fear of backlash from law enforcement or prosecuting attorneys looking for the quick conviction/bust so they can justify their jobs to whatever governmental entity they work for. They are against it because of what someone here said earlier - it requires them to view people as innocent until proven guilty, which makes their job that much harder. They are simply acting in their own self interest - exactly the reason why every law abiding citizen in this state should support this bill and not let misguided self interest take away the very reason this bill was written.
By Rick K. on 02-16-09
Praise God!
A praise Montana for stepping forward and defending our God-Given unalienable Rights as set down by our beloved founding Fathers in the U.S. Constitution.
Vermont and Alaska allow concealed carry without a permit required. Vermont allows a law abiding citizen to also own a full auto machine gun without a permit required. This is true freedom. There has never been a mass killing with a full auto rifle in these states, and never will be.
In the 1780s everyone was allowed to carry the latest and most up to date technology of their time. That would be the .69 ca.Charlottesville Flintlock rifle and a .36-.69 ca. flintlock pistol. These items lead the Americans to create a new country. Citizens of that time did not use them to destroy their own country. People then didn’t have to have a permit for them either. There is still an America left standing, it was not destroyed by citizens owning guns. On the contrary, guns in all hands kept crime low and nonexistent in some areas. Had technology of today been around in the 18th century, all would have owned an AR15 full auto with 50 round magazines. Law abidding citizens today have the Right to own them today. Criminals don’t obey any laws, thus are known as OUTLAWS(outside the law). We have 50 million laws, and yet there is still crime and criminals. No amount of laws can stop crime or criminals. Law abidding citizens have the Right to protect their lives, that of their families, and property, as set down in the US Constitution. I support this Bill whole heartedly, and I pray this law passes, and that we see more laws such as these that protect and support our God-Given Rights. Montana Congress, KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK. I and my family vote every year there’s an election. Take it easy for now.
By Oldshooter on 02-17-09
You might be interested to know that the original advertising for the Thompson Submachine Gun (of “Tommy-Gun” fame) was tartgeted to a specific portion of the civilian market…the Cowboys of the American Southwest. Their first magazine ad depicts a cowboy in a small line shack, bursting out the door in his hat, boots, and long-johns, “Tommy-Gun” in hand, in the middle of the night, to defend himself against a band of mounted Mexican Bandits, This was in the era when Pancho Villa was raiding across the border into Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona. Now that the “Narcotraficantes” and “Zetas” are doing the same thing, where are our cowboys with their full-auto “Tommy Guns,” or AK-47s, or M-16s? Yeah Right! Today, we have to defend ourselves against M-16s and other full-auto weapons with, at best, semiauto rifles and pistols, and often enough not even that. How times have changed.
The views expressed in the comments section do not reflect those of the Beacon.