Let’s be civil. The Flathead Beacon encourages vigorous discussion and lively debate, but we will delete comments that attack other readers, make accusations we can’t verify, stray too far off topic, criticize local businesses (call them if you have a problem), convict someone of a crime, use profanity or are simply judged to be in bad taste. We don’t always have someone moderating comments, so we ask for your help: If you see a comment that violates these ground rules, or you simply deem it offensive, please e-mail editor [at] flatheadbeacon.com. The views expressed in the comments section do not reflect those of the Beacon.
By Hoq on 12-24-08
Here’s the problem - “We the Consumers” do not want to be mailed. We don’t want to be called. We don’t want to have our doors knocked on.
If you spamvertisers were doing such a great job at “laster targeting”, why would do many people be clamoring for a do-not-mail bill?
Beacon Readers Rated This Comment:
By Mark on 12-24-08
Hoq,
Most of them dont, because they are simply too lazy to do the work to target their audience properly. They have more money than sense.
If the mailing is targeted properly, it should be of interest. That’s the whole point of these discussions.
“Build it and they will come” is a losing strategy that only works in baseball movies.
As for calling, faxing and door knocking, no argument there - though it’s important to keep in mind that we’ve been conditioned to feel this way because the people who do those things have carpet bombed us with irrelevant offers, called us during dinner and similar behavior.
If no one can contact you in any way for any reason without an existing business relationship (what the do not mail crowd really wants), get used to buying only from large corporate entities and get used to fewer and fewer small locally owned NEW businesses.
The Bozeman-originated Do-not-mail bill was not about the consumer, it was about saving paper, believe it or not.
Beacon Readers Rated This Comment:
By JD on 12-24-08
If only there was a way of advertising that really was worth the cost. I know the average consumer has no idea what advertising costs. And that the cost has to be figured into the price of the product or service. Do people even realize the horrendous expenses incurred in just Yellow Page advertising, which now has to be done in THREE different phone books here now? What a rip off.
We’ve had people complain they can’t find us. If it were legal to put up adequate signage, the expense then becomes the issue.
I know people are sick of being bombarded by advertising. I am, too. So we find ways to shut ourselves in from it, like satellite radio and mute buttons. Then wonder why we missed the big sale.
Try opening a new store in a big retail development. People aren’t paying attention to what’s going on, and in, around town, so they can’t find you. Again, signage can’t be big enough to be noticed. Some folks actually get angry because they didn’t get the message, when it’s their fault they can’t see or hear our very expensive forms of advertising. I could go on and on with examples of this which are hilarious and frustrating…
Word of mouth advertising is the only effective method in this valley. We know it, for sure.
Beacon Readers Rated This Comment:
By Ray on 12-26-08
JD, word of mouth is one engine of a business that should be effective. Growth potential are the ones that aren’t part of the word of mouth engine. Expand to mass media to get more people into your internal engine and growth will come. The key is to invite people to your business or to use your services and back their experience up as a pleasurable one. To say that word of mouth is the only effective method in the valley will only keep you in your own box. Spend the money in the right place and stay with it and then you’ll find out rather than assuming.
Beacon Readers Rated This Comment:
By Mark Riffey on 12-26-08
JD,
Certainly there are times when advertising doesn’t produce a good ROI - which is why I repeatedly remind business owners to make that every single ad in every single media includes something that allows the ad’s response to be measured. Its particularly critical for long-term buys like Yellow Page ads.
Most advertising tends to resemble a person standing on the street corner yelling at the top of their lungs. They are easy to tune out and targeted at no one in particular. These kinds of ads are prevalent in every media out there. Just because 3 million people see them doesn’t mean they will be effective.
That kind of marketing is an expense, not the investment that strong, measurable marketing is.
As for what the consumer knows about the investment required for various types of advertising, why they should care? Has anyone ever walked into a store and said “I want to buy here because I know that you invest a lot in your advertising” ? Not likely.
Beacon Readers Rated This Comment:
By John on 12-26-08
Yellow pages advertising is becoming a terrible way to spend advertising dollars—for virtually any business. People are looking up telephone numbers online now, through 411 services and about every other way than some big bulky book. Marketing is a tough business—you have to know what people want and what their natural behavior is.
Beacon Readers Rated This Comment:
By JD on 12-26-08
I wish there was a way to buy advertising that was guaranteed to be effective. I know it’s a tough business, but everyone I know in it is only interested in getting paid, not whether it works well enough that his customer can pay him. A radio ad salesman/DJ hounded me constantly to please throw more money at his useless plan, stopped only when I told him he’s welcome to air my commercials nonstop 24/7 if he wants to, but don’t dare bill me for it unless it works well enough that I can pay his bill. Never heard from him again. Professional promises are all talk. I’ve been a sucker. Not any more. Are there any real pros out there who want to actually EARN my advertising dollar? I’ll sign your contract if you’ll sign mine!
Beacon Readers Rated This Comment:
By John on 12-26-08
Depending on what your products are, internet advertising (pay per click) and direct mail have very tangible metrics that you can track back to your product so you can typically tell up front whether the campaign will pen out. This is best suited though for direct product sales, not branding campaigns.
Beacon Readers Rated This Comment:
By Ray on 12-26-08
JD, the first and foremost reason someone does business with someone is their perception on that particular business. It is very tough to measure perception. But it is the most important factor in a successful business. To say that you consult your businesses to have an offer to react to, how can you build value with that message. I would rather have customers come in and say I heard you do this rather than coming in off of price. It is tough to gain a customer off of price. You want gaurantee. Radio is a great way to create perception. YOu have control over your message. You are overlooking awareness in a big way and want people to come in on an offer. Tough way to make a profit JD. You want a guarantee. You must have much more faith in your marketing.. Stop worrying so much about the people coming in the business, start worrying about the ones that aren’t coming into the business.
Beacon Readers Rated This Comment:
By Mark on 12-28-08
JD,
Asking for a guarantee might be a bit much, but expecting specific results to be put into your contract isnt out of line. I expect you might not find many takers, depending on the media involved.
Most media companies have fairly detailed info (not just “eyeballs” or “listeners”) about each segment of their viewing clientele. Use it to decide if that media makes sense for your advertising dollar.
One of the critical mistakes that gets made during the process of rolling out an ad campaign is writing a check and turning the creation of the ad over to the advertising service (ie: the media business itself, most often).
Business owners have to take it upon themselves to educate themselves on the nuts and bolts of creating and evaluating the message thats being used to promote their goods and services. Its real work, but it is one of the best investments you can make in your business, even if you have someone
helping you with this sort of work.
Beacon Readers Rated This Comment:
By JD on 12-28-08
Correct, Mark. However, the various advertising companies don’t at all agree as to the results of the ratings! Specifically, for instance, each phone book’s Yellow Pages salesman claims his book is the only one used in (for example) 80% of households in the valley. Compare all three claims, add ‘em up, it’s over 200% year after year. Somebody’s pulling some legs. Another example, a radio ad salesman shows you the ratings that make them look like number one by far, then comes another that has his station way out front. They need to get their heads together (not likely because they are at war, big time) and come up with something that makes them look credible. Personally I’m sick of the BS and paying thousands monthly for nothing. It’s just not gonna happen anymore. I’m getting an airplane and will pull a banner around. It works. It’s dirt cheap.
Beacon Readers Rated This Comment:
By Mark on 12-28-08
JD,
Knowing how many people listen is important, but what’s more important are things like “when do they listen” and “what are their interests and demographics” (speaking of radio, that is).
Being #1 in drive-time by 3% may not be important, depending on what you’re selling - OR it might be super-critical.
Results are what matter. What do other small niche retailers say about the results of ads in whatever media?
Media ad salespeople are under tremendous pressure to produce sales, particularly nowadays. While they surely realize that your success from their ad probably means a repeat ad sale that will be important to them, the only serious pressure they are under to produce increases in your sales is going to come from you.
Beacon Readers Rated This Comment:
By JD on 12-29-08
I think the problem is, how do you reach the people who you really WANT to attract to your retail business, that is, the ones with plenty of “play” money? They are tuned in to sattelite radio or CD’s or iPods. They don’t want to hear the commercials or comedy routine. They are somewhat unreachable, other than what they hear from word of mouth.
The little Kaleidoscope/Fish/Pilot papers are fairly well read, we like that. Billboards are well seen by all, but they are very expensive. I know the answer is Massive Signage, but that’s not legal. Except on vehicles, we do that and will do even more soon.
Any other ideas? Thanks, folks.
Beacon Readers Rated This Comment:
By JB on 12-29-08
JD, it seems to me that you need to do more research on your target market. First, you need to clearly define it, whether it is people with an income above a set level, or business owners, etc. Then you need to determine the types of media they use the most, Someone else here mentioned that you should also track how your customers found out about you, whether it was by word of mouth, etc. It’s important to gauge the effectiveness of your advertising efforts, so you don’t waste money on advertising that doesn’t work.
Have you looked into local cable advertising? I know that particular media has a pretty high penetration level from what I understand. Using the Internet is also a great idea, since most folks in your target market (assuming those with disposable income) use the Internet regularly. There are many ways on the Internet to advertise and reach a local target market in that regard, from starting a website to using keyword search advertising, and the cost is more reasonable. Plus its a lot easier to track hits and who frequents your website.
Beacon Readers Rated This Comment:
By ray on 12-29-08
JD, assuming the people with disposable income only use ipods and sattelite radio is wrong. 85% of Americans listen to commercial radio. I believe you have talked to the wrong people. NEWS TALK Radio is a great source for higher income folks at a very reasonable price. How long have you been on a radio campaign?
Beacon Readers Rated This Comment:
By JD on 12-29-08
I agree about News talk radio. Will definitely try that. I find myself getting quite absorbed by the topics there occasionally. We’ve been advertising on the top five (by their ratings) stations for three years.
A TV ad salesman was pretty convinced that FM radio is listened to mostly by those who want, but can’t justify the expense of, XFM and the like. But then, his TV commercials didn’t seem to be noticed by anyone we met. We (especially I) love to engage willing customers in some banter about whether or not they’ve noticed our advertising. It’s very disappointing when they didn’t.
However, the great jingle by Rob Dubree got some feedback. People were telling me they couldn’t get the tune out of their head. Trouble is, they weren’t customers. Mostly my stock car racing friends in the pits on Wednesday and Saturday evenings… they heard it, it affected them, but all their money goes into tires and 115 octane fuel… one track minds there, it’s an incurable disease.
So yes, sometimes I do talk to the wrong people. That’s why I’m here, thanks for your help, I’m listening! I’m thinking, just a guess here, your last name is Ray, right?
Beacon Readers Rated This Comment:
By Ray on 12-30-08
No, my last name is not Ray, it is my first and I am NOT from KOFI Radio. If this is the business that I am thinking, I don’t beleive I have heard your jingle in a while. The problem is that your expectations are very high with advertising. I can tell you that there are hidden treasures in constant marketing with a media that is effective. If people are aware of your business and your business has great name recognition, don’t try to push the issue where people heard you. Businesses that have great recognition have customers just know about you. THis is a great thing. To have people tell you where they heard about you is not accurate. You must have faith in creating awareness and perception. This is very tough to gage. I believe your business, if it is the right one, started great awareness, but you can’t be on and off all the time. It needs to be consistant.
Beacon Readers Rated This Comment:
By Rose on 12-30-08
JB, JD….Advertisement suggestion http://www.westernmontanagrapevine.com
Affordable Community Grapevine advertisemnt. Only $100 to place an ad. Check it out if you are interested. It’s been growing by leaps and bounds, also a great way to communicate with valley residents and business owners. Beacon is also a nice place for posting free ads too!
Thanks and Happy New Year.
Beacon Readers Rated This Comment:
By JD on 12-30-08
Thanks, Ray and Rose. Years ago the Interlake invited me to a “Top of Mind Awareness” seminar, that was fascinating. I am certain that the rental aspect of my business has the community’s top of mind awareness, having been around since the mid-seventies. The charities, and fund raisers and such certainly have us speed dial… yes we do give a lot but have to say no sometimes, you can only give away so much!
It’s the new and improved retail department that needs more advertising. I know the fuel prices of last summer, and now the recession, are a huge factor in decreased business, but I also know that LOTS of people do not know about Hutton Ranch. It does NOT get the traffic we were “promised”. The new retail store is exactly what customers begged for, it blows away that dismal Hwy.93 South location that we “inherited”. Now it just needs more exposure, awareness, and traffic.
Happy New Year to you, too! Be sure to attend downtown Kalispell’s “First Night” celebration, it is always a great event. Those will be my folding chairs you sit in while enjoying the music.
Beacon Readers Rated This Comment:
By ron c on 12-31-08
Wonderful blog you guys have going. Intelligent discourse and good information without any flaming or name calling. Thanks, JD, Mark, Ray and everyone else who contributed.
Beacon Readers Rated This Comment:
By JD on 01-03-09
Thanks, Ron. This is the first discussion I’ve engaged in that wasn’t taken over by the hate spewers. Some of us come here to learn and teach, not purposely enrage others. There are a lot of questions out there, and for every question there is an answer, we just have to find them, it helps to not have to fight for them.
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Let’s be civil. The Flathead Beacon encourages vigorous discussion and lively debate, but we will delete comments that attack other readers, make accusations we can’t verify, stray too far off topic, criticize local businesses (call them if you have a problem), convict someone of a crime, use profanity or are simply judged to be in bad taste. We don’t always have someone moderating comments, so we ask for your help: If you see a comment that violates these ground rules, or you simply deem it offensive, please e-mail editor [at] flatheadbeacon.com. The views expressed in the comments section do not reflect those of the Beacon.
By Hoq on 12-24-08
Here’s the problem - “We the Consumers” do not want to be mailed. We don’t want to be called. We don’t want to have our doors knocked on.
If you spamvertisers were doing such a great job at “laster targeting”, why would do many people be clamoring for a do-not-mail bill?
By Mark on 12-24-08
Hoq,
Most of them dont, because they are simply too lazy to do the work to target their audience properly. They have more money than sense.
If the mailing is targeted properly, it should be of interest. That’s the whole point of these discussions.
“Build it and they will come” is a losing strategy that only works in baseball movies.
As for calling, faxing and door knocking, no argument there - though it’s important to keep in mind that we’ve been conditioned to feel this way because the people who do those things have carpet bombed us with irrelevant offers, called us during dinner and similar behavior.
If no one can contact you in any way for any reason without an existing business relationship (what the do not mail crowd really wants), get used to buying only from large corporate entities and get used to fewer and fewer small locally owned NEW businesses.
The Bozeman-originated Do-not-mail bill was not about the consumer, it was about saving paper, believe it or not.
By JD on 12-24-08
If only there was a way of advertising that really was worth the cost. I know the average consumer has no idea what advertising costs. And that the cost has to be figured into the price of the product or service. Do people even realize the horrendous expenses incurred in just Yellow Page advertising, which now has to be done in THREE different phone books here now? What a rip off.
We’ve had people complain they can’t find us. If it were legal to put up adequate signage, the expense then becomes the issue.
I know people are sick of being bombarded by advertising. I am, too. So we find ways to shut ourselves in from it, like satellite radio and mute buttons. Then wonder why we missed the big sale.
Try opening a new store in a big retail development. People aren’t paying attention to what’s going on, and in, around town, so they can’t find you. Again, signage can’t be big enough to be noticed. Some folks actually get angry because they didn’t get the message, when it’s their fault they can’t see or hear our very expensive forms of advertising. I could go on and on with examples of this which are hilarious and frustrating…
Word of mouth advertising is the only effective method in this valley. We know it, for sure.
By Ray on 12-26-08
JD, word of mouth is one engine of a business that should be effective. Growth potential are the ones that aren’t part of the word of mouth engine. Expand to mass media to get more people into your internal engine and growth will come. The key is to invite people to your business or to use your services and back their experience up as a pleasurable one. To say that word of mouth is the only effective method in the valley will only keep you in your own box. Spend the money in the right place and stay with it and then you’ll find out rather than assuming.
By Mark Riffey on 12-26-08
JD,
Certainly there are times when advertising doesn’t produce a good ROI - which is why I repeatedly remind business owners to make that every single ad in every single media includes something that allows the ad’s response to be measured. Its particularly critical for long-term buys like Yellow Page ads.
Most advertising tends to resemble a person standing on the street corner yelling at the top of their lungs. They are easy to tune out and targeted at no one in particular. These kinds of ads are prevalent in every media out there. Just because 3 million people see them doesn’t mean they will be effective.
That kind of marketing is an expense, not the investment that strong, measurable marketing is.
As for what the consumer knows about the investment required for various types of advertising, why they should care? Has anyone ever walked into a store and said “I want to buy here because I know that you invest a lot in your advertising” ? Not likely.
By John on 12-26-08
Yellow pages advertising is becoming a terrible way to spend advertising dollars—for virtually any business. People are looking up telephone numbers online now, through 411 services and about every other way than some big bulky book. Marketing is a tough business—you have to know what people want and what their natural behavior is.
By JD on 12-26-08
I wish there was a way to buy advertising that was guaranteed to be effective. I know it’s a tough business, but everyone I know in it is only interested in getting paid, not whether it works well enough that his customer can pay him. A radio ad salesman/DJ hounded me constantly to please throw more money at his useless plan, stopped only when I told him he’s welcome to air my commercials nonstop 24/7 if he wants to, but don’t dare bill me for it unless it works well enough that I can pay his bill. Never heard from him again. Professional promises are all talk. I’ve been a sucker. Not any more. Are there any real pros out there who want to actually EARN my advertising dollar? I’ll sign your contract if you’ll sign mine!
By John on 12-26-08
Depending on what your products are, internet advertising (pay per click) and direct mail have very tangible metrics that you can track back to your product so you can typically tell up front whether the campaign will pen out. This is best suited though for direct product sales, not branding campaigns.
By Ray on 12-26-08
JD, the first and foremost reason someone does business with someone is their perception on that particular business. It is very tough to measure perception. But it is the most important factor in a successful business. To say that you consult your businesses to have an offer to react to, how can you build value with that message. I would rather have customers come in and say I heard you do this rather than coming in off of price. It is tough to gain a customer off of price. You want gaurantee. Radio is a great way to create perception. YOu have control over your message. You are overlooking awareness in a big way and want people to come in on an offer. Tough way to make a profit JD. You want a guarantee. You must have much more faith in your marketing.. Stop worrying so much about the people coming in the business, start worrying about the ones that aren’t coming into the business.
By Mark on 12-28-08
JD,
Asking for a guarantee might be a bit much, but expecting specific results to be put into your contract isnt out of line. I expect you might not find many takers, depending on the media involved.
Most media companies have fairly detailed info (not just “eyeballs” or “listeners”) about each segment of their viewing clientele. Use it to decide if that media makes sense for your advertising dollar.
One of the critical mistakes that gets made during the process of rolling out an ad campaign is writing a check and turning the creation of the ad over to the advertising service (ie: the media business itself, most often).
Business owners have to take it upon themselves to educate themselves on the nuts and bolts of creating and evaluating the message thats being used to promote their goods and services. Its real work, but it is one of the best investments you can make in your business, even if you have someone
helping you with this sort of work.
By JD on 12-28-08
Correct, Mark. However, the various advertising companies don’t at all agree as to the results of the ratings! Specifically, for instance, each phone book’s Yellow Pages salesman claims his book is the only one used in (for example) 80% of households in the valley. Compare all three claims, add ‘em up, it’s over 200% year after year. Somebody’s pulling some legs. Another example, a radio ad salesman shows you the ratings that make them look like number one by far, then comes another that has his station way out front. They need to get their heads together (not likely because they are at war, big time) and come up with something that makes them look credible. Personally I’m sick of the BS and paying thousands monthly for nothing. It’s just not gonna happen anymore. I’m getting an airplane and will pull a banner around. It works. It’s dirt cheap.
By Mark on 12-28-08
JD,
Knowing how many people listen is important, but what’s more important are things like “when do they listen” and “what are their interests and demographics” (speaking of radio, that is).
Being #1 in drive-time by 3% may not be important, depending on what you’re selling - OR it might be super-critical.
Results are what matter. What do other small niche retailers say about the results of ads in whatever media?
Media ad salespeople are under tremendous pressure to produce sales, particularly nowadays. While they surely realize that your success from their ad probably means a repeat ad sale that will be important to them, the only serious pressure they are under to produce increases in your sales is going to come from you.
By JD on 12-29-08
I think the problem is, how do you reach the people who you really WANT to attract to your retail business, that is, the ones with plenty of “play” money? They are tuned in to sattelite radio or CD’s or iPods. They don’t want to hear the commercials or comedy routine. They are somewhat unreachable, other than what they hear from word of mouth.
The little Kaleidoscope/Fish/Pilot papers are fairly well read, we like that. Billboards are well seen by all, but they are very expensive. I know the answer is Massive Signage, but that’s not legal. Except on vehicles, we do that and will do even more soon.
Any other ideas? Thanks, folks.
By JB on 12-29-08
JD, it seems to me that you need to do more research on your target market. First, you need to clearly define it, whether it is people with an income above a set level, or business owners, etc. Then you need to determine the types of media they use the most, Someone else here mentioned that you should also track how your customers found out about you, whether it was by word of mouth, etc. It’s important to gauge the effectiveness of your advertising efforts, so you don’t waste money on advertising that doesn’t work.
Have you looked into local cable advertising? I know that particular media has a pretty high penetration level from what I understand. Using the Internet is also a great idea, since most folks in your target market (assuming those with disposable income) use the Internet regularly. There are many ways on the Internet to advertise and reach a local target market in that regard, from starting a website to using keyword search advertising, and the cost is more reasonable. Plus its a lot easier to track hits and who frequents your website.
By ray on 12-29-08
JD, assuming the people with disposable income only use ipods and sattelite radio is wrong. 85% of Americans listen to commercial radio. I believe you have talked to the wrong people. NEWS TALK Radio is a great source for higher income folks at a very reasonable price. How long have you been on a radio campaign?
By JD on 12-29-08
I agree about News talk radio. Will definitely try that. I find myself getting quite absorbed by the topics there occasionally. We’ve been advertising on the top five (by their ratings) stations for three years.
A TV ad salesman was pretty convinced that FM radio is listened to mostly by those who want, but can’t justify the expense of, XFM and the like. But then, his TV commercials didn’t seem to be noticed by anyone we met. We (especially I) love to engage willing customers in some banter about whether or not they’ve noticed our advertising. It’s very disappointing when they didn’t.
However, the great jingle by Rob Dubree got some feedback. People were telling me they couldn’t get the tune out of their head. Trouble is, they weren’t customers. Mostly my stock car racing friends in the pits on Wednesday and Saturday evenings… they heard it, it affected them, but all their money goes into tires and 115 octane fuel… one track minds there, it’s an incurable disease.
So yes, sometimes I do talk to the wrong people. That’s why I’m here, thanks for your help, I’m listening! I’m thinking, just a guess here, your last name is Ray, right?
By Ray on 12-30-08
No, my last name is not Ray, it is my first and I am NOT from KOFI Radio. If this is the business that I am thinking, I don’t beleive I have heard your jingle in a while. The problem is that your expectations are very high with advertising. I can tell you that there are hidden treasures in constant marketing with a media that is effective. If people are aware of your business and your business has great name recognition, don’t try to push the issue where people heard you. Businesses that have great recognition have customers just know about you. THis is a great thing. To have people tell you where they heard about you is not accurate. You must have faith in creating awareness and perception. This is very tough to gage. I believe your business, if it is the right one, started great awareness, but you can’t be on and off all the time. It needs to be consistant.
By Rose on 12-30-08
JB, JD….Advertisement suggestion
http://www.westernmontanagrapevine.com
Affordable Community Grapevine advertisemnt. Only $100 to place an ad. Check it out if you are interested. It’s been growing by leaps and bounds, also a great way to communicate with valley residents and business owners. Beacon is also a nice place for posting free ads too!
Thanks and Happy New Year.
By JD on 12-30-08
Thanks, Ray and Rose. Years ago the Interlake invited me to a “Top of Mind Awareness” seminar, that was fascinating. I am certain that the rental aspect of my business has the community’s top of mind awareness, having been around since the mid-seventies. The charities, and fund raisers and such certainly have us speed dial… yes we do give a lot but have to say no sometimes, you can only give away so much!
It’s the new and improved retail department that needs more advertising. I know the fuel prices of last summer, and now the recession, are a huge factor in decreased business, but I also know that LOTS of people do not know about Hutton Ranch. It does NOT get the traffic we were “promised”. The new retail store is exactly what customers begged for, it blows away that dismal Hwy.93 South location that we “inherited”. Now it just needs more exposure, awareness, and traffic.
Happy New Year to you, too! Be sure to attend downtown Kalispell’s “First Night” celebration, it is always a great event. Those will be my folding chairs you sit in while enjoying the music.
By ron c on 12-31-08
Wonderful blog you guys have going. Intelligent discourse and good information without any flaming or name calling. Thanks, JD, Mark, Ray and everyone else who contributed.
By JD on 01-03-09
Thanks, Ron. This is the first discussion I’ve engaged in that wasn’t taken over by the hate spewers. Some of us come here to learn and teach, not purposely enrage others. There are a lot of questions out there, and for every question there is an answer, we just have to find them, it helps to not have to fight for them.