By By and By on 03-15-10
It’s very simple. If he fails then we win as a country. It’s fairly clear that the current direction our government is going is the opposite of the will of the people of these great United States of America!
By JB on 03-15-10
If Obama wins, then this country becomes even more polarized - and we begin that long slide towards destabilization.
By Vud on 03-15-10
If Obama fails to win then these numbers surely continue to get worse.
http://www.flatheadbeacon.com/articles/article/working_the_land_buried_by_medical_costs/5691/
By Kalispell Native on 03-15-10
By and By: What a fallacious right-wing talking-point!
He won the election, which reflects the will of the people.
He won the election, in part, campaigning on health care reform, which reflects the will of the people.
Elections have consequences. Get used to it.
By JB on 03-16-10
What KN really means to say is that health care reform reflects the will of Congress and the Obama administration.
So get used to it.
By MontanaTrace on 03-16-10
It won’t fail to pass. It’s about politics not health care. They will get the votes after some midnight in a locked room. Most haven’t read it and don’t care what’s in it. Pelosi is a fine example: http://www.breitbart.tv/nancy-pelosi-we-need-to-pass-health-care-bill-to-find-out-whats-in-it/
Google: “We have to pass the health care bill to find out what’s in it.” It’s all over the internet. Anyone who wants to, can easily find it, many, many times. Not taken out of context. You can watch and/or read the entire speech.
It’s just pure politics.
They have almost got the votes. Only a few left to buy.
It’ll get read then and be enforced by the brown shirts.
This will backfire and greatly damage the liberal Dems.
By JB on 03-16-10
Isn’t it time that we learned some lessons from what happened to Iceland?
Icelandic journalist Iris Erlingsdottir wrote in the Huffington Post, “While we have been endlessly debating IceSave, our unemployment rate has continued to climb, the number of insolvencies has continued to increase, and the number of public services has continued to decrease. Other scandals of comparable magnitude and abuse of taxpayer money—but involving only Icelanders—are being ignored by the Icelandic media.” Change a few nouns—health care, Citigroup (C, Fortune 500)—and Erlingsdottir is writing about Washington as Reykjavik.
By Montucky on 03-16-10
This is no longer about health care. It is about an elitist, selfish, egotistical individual who wants desperately to become a dictator. Obama has turned this whole 2700 page nightmare that nobody has even read into a huge suppository. He’s too wrapped up in himself to understand, but if he wins it will be the biggest loss of his life and he will take down much of his party with him.
By Vud on 03-16-10
“Change a few nouns—health care, Citigroup (C, Fortune 500)—and Erlingsdottir is writing about Washington as Reykjavik”
Hahaha - Change a few nouns and suddenly were talking about the Bush administration ( or actually *anything* else)
Presto changeo - It’s like magic: We were talking about THIS, now we’re talking about THAT…Icesave indeed!
By MontanaTrace on 03-16-10
Another local paper has taken a poll of readers. Yes or no on the health care reform being pushed by the leaders of the Dems.
77% No.
Across the country the vote is more no than yes.
Yes, Obama was elected to create change but this isn’t the change expected.
Will it pass? Yes, late one weekend night. Will this erupt into lawsuits from individual states? Yes. Will Dems lose their seats? Yes.
I’ll be glad when this is over. The administration needs to focus on jobs. We can’t pay new or old taxes, without a paycheck.
By Craig moore on 03-16-10
Perhaps the damage has already been done. Just the other day he gave a lesson in fuzzy math. Obama said,
“Your Employer Would See Premiums Fall By As Much As 3000 Percent”.
If you went to a car dealership and the salesman pitched to you that their cars were 3000% cheaper than the other guy, would you have faith in that claim and buy your car there?
Now, switch to health care. If you wouldn’t buy a car with such a sales pitch, why would you trust your health care when lied to that way?
By Vud on 03-16-10
...moore fun with nouns:
Vice President Dick Cheney’s stock options in Halliburton rose from $241,498 in 2004 to over $8 million in 2005, an increase of more than 3,000 percent, as Halliburton continues to rake in billions of dollars from no-bid/no-audit government contracts.
http://www.projectcensored.org/top-stories/articles/24-cheneys-halliburton-stock-rose-over-3000-percent-last-year/
By Craig moore on 03-16-10
Vud, huh?? (o_0) Obama talking point: Chant “Bush, Cheney, Halliburton” to deflect whenever someone makes a point.
By Vud on 03-16-10
Yeah, Just messin’ with ya, man. Stateus woe on healthcare is no good either…
By Native on 03-16-10
If Obama fails to reform Health Care I will weep uncontrollably because that means that Rush Limbaugh isn’t leaving.
By dsrobins on 03-16-10
Native may be right. Rush will likely be the very first to sign up for Obamacare because he’ll think he can get his Oxycontin and other drugs more cheaply there. Fox News will be so pleased because they’ll be able to cancel Rush’s cadillac health care plan.
More on the bright side. There will be lots and lots of extreme right wing Republicans having strokes, myocardial infarctions, sudden loosening of the bowels, hysteria attacks, sleepless nights and occasional conniption fits nationwide. It’ll all be to the good.
By corsair1945 on 03-17-10
I hope he fails; we need healthcare reform but not this horrible example of a bill. What an arrogant attitude our president and congress have to want to ram this down our throats when the american people do not want it. Maybe they would start working on bringing jobs to this country which should be the most important thing to spend their time on.
By Native on 03-17-10
corsair1945 - Just curious, what exactly don’t you like about the current bill? What would be a better way to go about reform?
Keep in mind I’ve asked this same question to several people who have the same attitude as you and I never get an answer (beside’s buzz words like “socialism”). I am almost starting to think that all the negativists are simply repeating talking points and don’t actually have a clue whats really in the bill or what is going on.
By Vud on 03-17-10
Hurry Ensign E.
The deck has been cleared…bring that Hog home! Don’t make me fight BOTH sides of this war.
By MontanaTrace on 03-17-10
So native what’s good about the bill? (cite the pages please)
Until sentiment changes, or Obama tries to change it, it is absolutely clear that neither the American people nor the president is serious about making worthwhile changes in the status quo. Both are just trying to turn government into a means for everyone to live at the expense of everyone else. This has become politics not health care reform.
What’s wrong with the health care plan being presented but not read by the political leaders? Be specific? 2,700+ pages of specific?
Here’s just a start for an answer, Google: “what’s wrong with the health care reform bill?” You’ll get an ear or eye full from doctors, nurses, religious leaders, common off the street neighbors who have read large parts of the bill, other politicians, Americans that are informed, your neighbors, etc. Read lots of comments not just a few. Specifics are identified. Undeniable specifics. After awhile, you’ll see a recurring theme. Yes, the plan does have areas with merit. But…. it’s too much, too big and with too many changes that will cost too much for less service. It makes the government start up and take control of over a hundred new macro administrations.
We need a step by step change, not a new cabinet post. Start your search on your own or here:
http://reason.com/blog/2009/07/17/whats-wrong-with-health-care-r
http://www.alternet.org/blogs/politics/144735/what’s_wrong_with_the_healthcare_bill_ask_a_nurse./
http://crooksandliars.com/susie-madrak/dr-marcia-angell-tells-bill-moyers-ob
http://kathrynwarmstrong.wordpress.com/2009/08/04/whats-wrong-with-obamas-health-care-bill-plenty/
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/postpartisan/2010/03/the_abortion_debate_is_just_a.html
As an election slogan it was fine. It’s become the monster that can eat the country, now and in the future.
By Vud on 03-17-10
Let me do a quick translation:
MT said :
” Both are just trying to turn government into a means for everyone to live at the expense of everyone else.”
...and…
“…. it’s too much, too big and with too many changes that will cost too much for less service.”
Sorry. Just did’nt think it fair to let Native do all that work for you MT.
By Vud on 03-17-10
...but of course he’s quite capable of speaking for himself…
By MontanaTrace on 03-17-10
VUD: you got it right. If it hadn’t been so much about politics and rushing 2,700 pages of changes thru, health care reform could have started as, let’s first change a few things and then a few more. There would be a better chance of bipartisan reform. Nope, it’s us against them with the public being last of concern. All or nothing. (Maybe we ought to insist the bill be read and understood before voting on it. “Let’s first pass the Bill, we can fix it later.” Just like when we were in school, “let’s take the test now, we’ll get the right answers later.” [not] Let’s pass the bill now and figure out what’s in it later. Huh?)
Part of the bill is good but the GOP wants to start over. No, say the Dems, you take this as is, because we have the votes. Outsiders must think we’re idiots.
Governing by party line, makes us all lose.
We need term limits.
By Yudamni on 03-17-10
If he fails it will be a great thing for all us all. I believe the 2 party system works most of the time. Neither the right or the left can keep the upper hand for long, and neither can create radical changes. Do any of you really want one side to have total control? I sure as hell don"t.
By Native on 03-17-10
Trace - I’m not going to pretend I’ve read more than a fraction of that bill. Have you tried? Its so filled with medical and legal jargon that its impossible for a lamen to understand. I have read parts of the bill that are being attacked. Like when I heard about “death panels” I found the verbiage in the bill under scruitiny and found out it is just a clause that enables doctors to get paid for discussing end-of-life options. Before, doctors had no incentive to council a terminal patient on how they wanted to live out the rest of their life. I’ve researched other things just like that and it all leads me to believe that people like corsair1945 aren’t doing any research, they are simply taking right-wing scare tacktics at face value. Anything Glen Beck says must be true right? I agree this thing is an ugly mess and I agree that they should go back to an incrimental approach instead of lumping it all in together. But at the same time, I cannot tolerate people running off at the mouth and spreading fear to the masses when they have no idea what they are talking about.
By Kalispell Native on 03-17-10
Poor Montana Trace. He only agrees with the concept of Majority Rule when it’s his side in the majority.
By MontanaTrace on 03-17-10
How infantile. If it were as simple as majority rule, it would have passed ages ago. Why hasn’t it? To get this bill to pass there was first the Louisiana Purchase, The Cornhusker Kickback, Union deals, etc. Obama just took Kucinich on a ride in Air Force One. I hear if that didn’t work, they were gonna take him to the circus and later the zoo. Dems buying Dems. Whew! This is rich!
Majority rule. It’s a little late native, but thanks for my first laugh of the day.
Majority rule. Name one, just one poll that shows the American public has a majority vote for this bill to be passed. Well, there is one vote, just one. Our honorable representatives. Certainly not the majority of Americans.
This is an unpopular bill with the American public (the majority) but most likely it will pass with enough Dems to put it in place, as long as we can afford enough JP-4. I wish I had a vote. I’d love a ride in AF1.
By Native on 03-17-10
I can’t disagree with you MT. I wish I could. I want reform more than anything but the dems continue to trip over themselves and republicans continue their blatent obstruction of anything and everything. I am jumping on the bandwagon to vote every last member of congress out. Kucinich just made a speech about his acceptance of the bill but pretty much said he disagrees with it entirely.
By Vud on 03-17-10
One last post 2Day:
Yep, It’s a huge ugly bill thats attemptin’ to fix a huge and ongoing problem .
Here’s the kicker: The Dems want to cover 30,000,000 more people and the Repub’s want to cover 3,000,000 more.
THAT’s the biggest difference between the two parties plans. Most other ramifications flow from that huge idealogical divide.
It’s been stated that “outsiders must think we’re idiots” - They do, but not for the reasons you think - you see most of them
*have* affordable healthcare.
The most recent Healthcare debate is now over a year old - what is the “right amount of time” I wonder?
Do we really have to “start from scratch” every 10 years or so? It seems if your a Republican the answer is YES…or, in most cases, if its the Dem’s that bring up the issue of healthcare then the answer is: “NO”.)
Further Craig moore said:
“If you went to a car dealership and the salesman pitched to you that their cars were 3000% cheaper than the other guy, would you have faith in that claim and buy your car there?”
As a response, Native is correct. The scare-mongering from the right has been way, WAY over the top on this issue…why would I trust them to solve this problem?
In fact, Why would I vote into government office any candidate from a party that thinks not only that government can’t and does’nt work…but that government *should’nt* work? Having said that, would I want either party to hold an on going super majority?
Yudam ni said it: “I sure as hell don"t.
Last point, Reagan was against term limits too…‘till his 2nd term was coming to a close..then it was: “No, that is taking away the people’s right to choose”...in effect he’s right…elections *technically* are the time to throw the bums out…of course that rarely happens (because we’re selfishly stupid as voters…so yeah, I’d vote to give term limits a try.
I’ve had too many posts and too many green beers today:
Happy St. Pats.
By Vud on 03-17-10
Oh, and take heart right-siders. This thing is far from passed.After all these are Democrats we’re talking about here, not lock-step Republican’s.
By Craig moore on 03-18-10
What’s amazing is how insurance and health care are conflated into heath care reform. Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it. Here’s what Obama is going to get for his rub of the lamp: http://www.themedicusfirm.com/pages/medicus-media-survey-reveals-impact-health-reform=====================
Survey Reveals Potential Impact of Health Reform on Physician Supply
What if nearly HALF of all physicians in America suddenly stopped practicing medicine? Such a drastic decrease in the physician workforce could become a reality, depending upon how the healthcare reform legislation is implemented, and which version of health reform passes into law.
In a physician survey conducted December 2009 by The Medicus Firm, a national physician search firm, 24.7% of physicians stated that they would “retire early” if a public option is implemented, and an additional 21.0% of respondents stated that they would quit practicing medicine, even though they are nowhere near retirement. This brings the amount of physicians who would leave medicine to a total of 45.7%.
Interestingly, the numbers were not as dramatic, but still troubling, if the public option is not part of the equation. If health reform passes without the public option, 7.4% of physicians stated that they would quit practicing medicine, unless they were nearing retirement, in which case 21.8% said they would retire early, bringing the total loss of physician workforce to nearly one-third of physicians leaving medicine.
========================
By Kalispell Native on 03-18-10
Sorry Craig: [pdf] from the New England Journal of Medicine
http://www.nejmjobs.org/content/rpt/pdf/marApr_10.pdf
As referred to by Media Matters.
http://mediamatters.org/blog/201003170036
“So, in sum, the right-wing media has seized upon what appears to be essentially a promotional document from a physician recruitment firm in order to argue that health care reform will cause physician recruitment and retention problems in the future.”
By MontanaTrace on 03-18-10
Craig: good observations. The news is not good but the link is something we all need to be aware of. This is just one of the many, many trap doors this bill contains. Trap doors we will all fall through. This is just one reason why the Republicans and so many of the Dems backed away.
Too much, too big, too fast. A step by step reform would be easier to digest and modify in smaller pieces rather than a total across the board reform. It could have and should have been bi-partisan but there’s just so much in this 2,700 page bill even those that are 100% behind every page admit they don’t understand what’s in it. Pelosi wants us all to dive head first into the pool and then see if there’s any water.
I respect her blind dedication to her team but this isn’t a game. She wants her team to win, even if the American public has to lose.
If this passes, the collateral damages will not be acceptable. The ensuing lawsuits will be endless and massively expensive, especially if it is “deemed” for passage. That would be unconstitutional. Don’t think so? Google how Congress passes a bill into law. A few attorney generals will probably not need to. Idaho is already threatening to do so as well as twelve other states.
We need to pull the good bones out of this bill of reform and put it together again without all the pork, payoffs, new administration departments, etc.
Today’s news: 77% of Americans are not satisfied with Congress. The majority of Americans are against this bill being passed (majority rule?) and Obama is now only receiving a 44% approval rating.
Passing this bill (as is) will take down more than just one party, it will damage the entire country.
By Craig moore on 03-18-10
Kal Native, what is there to be sorry about. Nothing in the NEJM that disputes the findings. Medicus did the survey because they are in the business of recruiting medical professionals. They pulsed the doctors and the lay of the land because their business depends on those answers. Now, instead of that schlocky Media Matters do you have a better survey? I know, how about you just read the NEJM article that you link?
By Native on 03-18-10
Craig & MTrace - Its scary that you will believe anything that is put in front of you as long as it backs up your beliefs. Its funny because I imagine the main reason you both dispute climate change is because the very people supporting the theory benefit from it being considered true. Like the whole thing with Al Gore pushing it because it makes him money. Its the exact same thing here. So would you believe a study done by Phillip Morris that concluded that smoking isn’t bad for you? Or do you only believe what is convenient?
By MontanaTrace on 03-18-10
New England Journal of Medicine: “According to the New England Journal of Medicine, anywhere from a third to a half of all practicing doctors say they would leave their profession if the President’s health care plan passes.’
Life News: “Doctors also seem to understand the impact that will have as 72% of physicians feel that a public option would have a negative impact on physician supply, with 45% feeling it will “decline or worsen dramatically” and 27% predicting it will “decline or worsen somewhat.”
Washington Post: “One area that will see growth under the Senate plan is the abortion industry. With billions more flowing into U.S. clinics, business will be booming. After all, one thing “we have learned during this debate,” says The Washington Post writer Michael Gerson, “is that the Democratic Party’s commitment to abortion rights is even more central to its identity than health reform.” (less population growth, due to abortions, will be a cost savings that has been calculated into the new bill. That’s why it’s under a trillion.).
Investor’s Business daily: “More than 800,000 doctors were practicing in 2006, the government says. Projecting the poll’s finding onto that population, 360,000 doctors would consider quitting.”
By Kalispell Native on 03-18-10
Craig: The Medicus survey (aka a poll) would not even be a issue were it not for the G No P Propaganda channel flogging it and falsely attributing it as a policy position of the NEJM. Then the right-wing noise machine (RWNM aka Wurlitzer) in the blogosphere picked it and you decided to leave that flaming bag of poo on the Beacon’s doorstep.
http://www.dailykos.com/tv/w/002612/
The Medicus poll is no more valuable or meaningful than any other poll or unsupported talking point.
By Kalispell Native on 03-18-10
Links to your sources would be a good thing MT Trace. I’m not going to waste my time searching for your alleged quotes.
By hammer on 03-18-10
Native, face the fact, you are a liberal. Just look at your blog above. You believe Global Warming even though it is proven that head global scientists have admitted fraud with global warming. If that doesn’t tell you, you’ll never get it. You always like people to show you proof and sources. Your sources are all liberal slanted ones that you believe. Stop the charade and admit you are a liberal but like to act as if you aren’t. Face the truth, it’s right in front of you, stop acting as if you aren’t
By MontanaTrace on 03-18-10
Google: how many doctors will quit if health care reform passes?
You may choose from over fifty articles dating from a half hour ago to back last summer.
Pick a few of your favorite sources
///////////////////////////////
Yes, the climate is changing. Has been for 4 billion years. How much is the man made change compared to what was coming anyway? Some for sure. Enough for a carbon tax for the world put mostly on the shoulders of Americans? We need better emission controls worldwide.
Bumper sticker of the season in NY, PA, NJ, CN, RI, MA, OH, MA, VA, WV, etc.: “How much global warming did you have to shovel this winter?”
By Vud on 03-18-10
Hmmmm…..
Recruiting Physicians Today is published by
the Worldwide Advertising Sales and Marketing Department
in the Publishing Division of the
New England Journal of Medicine.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Yes. The fact is the US has a huge and rapidly aging population is going to put a strain on the supply of Primary- Care MD’s.
However, open any large city’s yellow pages and you’ll find page after page of medical *Specialists* competing with one another for your business.
But then that’s what the current system has rewarded - Specialists over Primary-Care health providers.
BTW I see Medicus really seems to promote the interests of the Specialist-Practicianer. Something the current health reform bills DE-emphsize in favor of the more needed Primary- Care phyician. Though I don’t think the current bills do enough in this area.
They could for example provide Med-school debt forgivness for *Primary Practice* MD students that maintain a set standard of performance while in school and agree to residency &/or practice in rural areas for a certain amount of time.
Another reason we need some form of Reform NOW.
By Native on 03-18-10
KN; Mtrace didn’t include links because all of those citings were made in an editorial written by the Family Research Council which is a right wing lobbying group formed by James Dobson.
http://www.opposingviews.com/i/up-to-half-of-doctors-will-quit-if-health-care-passes-poll-says
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_Research_Council
All of Trace’s references to that poll all come back to just that poll.
The Washington Post reference is not a news report, its an editorial from Michael Gerson was GW Bush’s speechwriter. Before that he was from the Heritage Club.
When are you guys going to realize that all of your negativity and skeptism is all built on commentary from talking heads with agendas. MTrace, you can’t site editorials as references, there is no truth or fact its all just opinions.
By Native on 03-18-10
Good news from the CBO report: Health-care reform bill cuts deficit by $1.3 trillion over 20 years, covers 95%
You fiscal conservatives should be all over this one. What a good deal for you guys!
By Kalispell Native on 03-18-10
Native: Thank you. I’m not surprised to hear that MTrace would be duplicitous in his responses.
By Vud on 03-18-10
Just on the subject of sources. Newscorp holdings:
Fox Broadcasting Company
New York Post
The Wall St. Journal
Dow Jones
Among many, many others….Not all bad sources but…
The Wall Street Journal has definitely become a much more agenda-driven paper since Newscorp bought them a couple of years ago.
By MontanaTrace on 03-18-10
There were two polls taken with similar questions about doctors quitting. One last fall and the other just two days ago. Most papers carried the results. It’s not like there are a multitude of surveys with varying results to chose from.
You have read the most recent poll and here are some comments from last September. It appears there is something real to be concerned about. I see no contradictions from any opposing points of view that state these survey results are bogus. NEJM is a pretty strong source that wouldn’t want to be associated with lies.
Investor’s Business Daily September 15, 2009:
http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article.aspx?id=506199
Two of every three practicing physicians oppose the medical overhaul plan under consideration in Washington, and hundreds of thousands would think about shutting down their practices or retiring early if it were adopted, a new IBD/TIPP Poll has found.
San Diego Examiner, 09/17/09
http://www.examiner.com/x-2988-San-Diego-Economy-Examiner~y2009m9d16-Poll-of-doctors-reveals-many-ready-to-quit-if-Health-Care-Reform-passes
The problem is that if we accept the claim that by passing this bill, 47 million people who currently are without coverage will have insurance once the bill is passed, we also must answer the question of where these people will find doctors to treat them. (Note: this article from last fall also addresses doctors quitting)
CNSNews: March 16,2010.
The medical journal published the results in its March and April edition, saying: “While a sudden loss of half of the nations physicians seems unlikely, a very dramatic decrease in the physician workforce could become a reality as an unexpected side effect of health reform.”
Any research, at any depth, will show results from the surveys that strongly indicate doctors will quit and will be overloaded. How much and how many? Time will tell. Many doctors are angry and say they will quit but that remains to be seen. You can bet an alarming % of older doctors might do just that.
The results of these two surveys and the comments that followed have been passed on as fact by a multitude of publications from nationally recognized newspapers, to little weeklies and magazines. The surveys seem to be trusted as fact (not by you). I’ve seen nothing to prove otherwise. If you have, I’d like to read it. I’ve searched the most liberal left wing nut job sources and can’t find even they dispute these results.
This is getting tiring. You’ve made up your mind. So have I and the majority of Americans. You feel this is a good thing for the country, the majority do not.
fini
That’s the last I’ll say about this subject.
Term limits wouldn’t let this happen. What would be important would be the will of the people not the wants of the party.
By Kalispell Native on 03-18-10
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/09/ibdtipp-doctors-poll-is-not-trustworthy.html
“There are pollsters out there that have an agenda but are highly competent, and there are pollsters that are nonpartisan but not particularly skilled. Rarely, however, do you find the whole package: that special pollster which is both biased and inept. IBD/TIPP is one of the few exceptions.”
The Examiner link cites the same IBD/TIPP poll so you’re trying to get a twofer that doesn’t exist.
The title for CNSnews says it all, “The Right News. Right Now.” Right WINGNUT news, that is.
By Vud on 03-18-10
An interesting site that has an:
Online Tool Illustrates How Premium Subsidies Work Reform Plans
Side-by-Side Comparison of Major Health Care Reform Proposals
http://healthreform.kff.org/
By hammer on 03-19-10
If you’d watch Brett Bair’s interview with Barak, you can obviously see he doesn’t want to talk about the reality behind this monstrocity of a health care reform. THis is more about Barak than the American People.
By Montucky on 03-19-10
Exactly, hammer! The biggest price has already been paid when this president and most of his party sacrificed their honesty, integrity and the trust of the American people to further a cause of just one man. Why else all of the cheap deals and haste?
By Native on 03-19-10
Yeah right, what a selfish idea to seek reduced health care costs for all Americans and fight for 30 million people who can’t get coverage. First President in ages to make decisions based on the welfare of the middle class as opposed to the richest Americans.
By Craig moore on 03-19-10
Native, reduced health care costs? How much Koolaid have you swallowed? They aren’t going down as the underlying cost drivers are not addressed.
By Craig moore on 03-19-10
And Native, premiums are going up too: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iVn9wrhB-3SF-Svo9kZyXd4bHRLAD9EG84VO0
By JB on 03-19-10
Yep, premiums are going up for everybody that can afford to pay health insurance premiums, that is - not for those who are getting a free ride at the expense of the taxpayer.
Higher premiums and reduced quality of care - yep, this will truly be health care reform at its finest…
By Craig moore on 03-19-10
JB, they watch more jobs leave the US as businesses like Caterpillar find it too expensive to stay here. See: http://www.chicagobreakingbusiness.com/2010/03/caterpillar-health-care-bill-would-cost-it-100m.html
By Vud on 03-19-10
Yep, Premiums ARE going up for everybody. It’s true with or without reform.
**We have a LARGE and AGING (read:Expensive) population**
An aside: ‘Premiums’ are going up for ALL items in the long term…it’s called inflation and it’s coming in a big way to a store near you…make your investment decisions accordingly.
For a better perpective on healthcare trends:
http://www.kff.org/pullingittogether/091509_altman.cfm
...or for those that prefer charts and pictures…
http://ehbs.kff.org/pdf/2009/7937.pdf
Also, Good News for those of you with health insurance that you like!
The benefits that DO kick in immediately upon signing of the HC reform bill almost exclusivly help the currently insured.
Check it out TODAY !
By Native on 03-19-10
Premiums have been rising every year for decades. In order for this bill to reduce costs its going to take awhile. In the very article Craig provided it talks about premiums rising and than leveling off which would be a huge victory.
By Vud on 03-19-10
Maybe, Craig moore but is this a coincidence?
Contracts to CATERPILLAR, INC. (FY 2008)
Caterpillar Inc. Corporate Headquarters:
100 NE Adams St.
Peoria, *ILLINOIS* 61629
Top Known Congressional Districts where (Federal contract) Work is Performed :
*ILLINOIS* 18 (Ray LaHood) $319,995,379
What the Government gives ($300Million + ) the government takes away ($100Million +) ? Being in business is tough.
By hammer on 03-19-10
Native, how can you be so ignorant to not think this health care bill won’t increase in costs every year too. Didn’t you even hear your own Dick Durban. Man, you sure do like to avoid the reality of all this and claim your sources are the best when all you can bring in is liberal slanted bs that this administration puts out.
By Native on 03-19-10
Is it even possible for you to contribute something to an arguement that has anything to do with the issue? You and so many others will do and say anything to avoid actually talking about the issue. Same in Congress. All the republicans repeating the same talking points over and over again in the media and they never say anything constructive. You know its a pretty easy platform to just sit around critisizing everything without any solutions of your own. And my favorite part is when I ask you to verify your reference or explain the diarrea that keeps falling out of your mouth and you just change the subject. Everything I have ever heard you say is based on someone else’s opinion. It is recycled garbage from Fox News. I don’t listen to commentary. I don’t read editorials. I investigate accusations and research big issues. I’m considered liberal because I care about people more than I care about the money and I don’t thinks thats such a bad thing.
By Craig moore on 03-19-10
Vud, apples and oranges. One is top line gross while the 100M comes off the bottom line.
Now check out this slight of hand: http://www.politico.com/static/PPM138_100319_recon.html
By Kalispell Native on 03-19-10
Ah yes. The memo that politico has now pulled down because they are not fully convinced of its veracity and true authorship.
[[There was an alleged Democratic memo (flogged hard by Drudge and originally published by Politico) which had the Democratic House leadership alleging telling members to keep quiet about plans for a “doc fix” later this year (basically something that would bust the budget and make the deficit reduction moot). But Democrats up on the Hill are saying categorically that no Dem communications person authored it. And they claim it’s a “hoax”.
A fraudulent memo leaked to the press sounds like something more out of a movie than anything that really happens in DC politics. But the Dems are screaming bloody murder. And the Politico has now taken down the piece to confirm its authenticity.]]
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2010/03/was_that_a_hoax.php?ref=fpblg
By Vud on 03-19-10
In a small way I conceed what you say is true.
However, the bottom line profits are a derivative of that (partly government provided) gross revenue.
More like apples to apple-sauce.
I looked on Cat’s website…No mention of that letter that I could find. It could just be too much of a political hot potato at the moment for them to draw public attention to though.
By Craig moore on 03-19-10
Vud, a small way?????
Take 10% of 300M and the answer is 30M. My guess on Cat’s profit. That leaves -70M in the hole
By Vud on 03-19-10
Cost + 10…maybe? Who knows.
But remember that $300 Mill was strictly their US Government Contracts and possibly just for Illinois though the govenrment site I took that number from may show all the contracts for that year listed as “state where work was performed ” as CAT’s US headquarters address.
Point is Cat has gotten real money which flows through to their bottom line from gov’t contracts…for years.
BTW I looked to see if they took any Stimulus money too…they did but it was under $3Million.
On the other hand I’m sure CAT appreciates all that tax-payer money that has, so far, helped stabilize the economy and allowed them and some of their customers to start borrowing again.
By Craig moore on 03-19-10
Vud, you made the apples and oranges comparison. Don’t deflect. Using your comparison that puts Cat 70M in the hole.
By Vud on 03-19-10
Ok. Apples2Oranges.
Thank Goodness CAT makes equipment tailor made to fill holes.
By Vud on 03-19-10
...Hey! Wait a minute! If I delect again maybe I can shave another $30 Million off ‘your’ number…
By Craig moore on 03-19-10
Vud, at the end of the day, it doesn’t matter what anyone thinks here. No one in power cares about our thoughts. This bill is a travesty. It doesn’t address costs as the underlying drivers of health care are not address. Health care costs are going up drastically as our population ages and people live unhealthy lifestyles.
Second, premiums are not going down. Even Dick Durbin admits they are going up.
Third, we are likely to lose doctors as they are squeezed.
Fourth, as Caterpillar has shouted, their costs are going up drastically with this bill. Look for even more jobs going overseas.
It’s hard for me to see how people win with this abomination.
By Vud on 03-19-10
Oh yeah…I don’t take the stuff here tooo seriously. I certainly don’t think I’m going to change anyones mind.
The bill is far from perfect but I’m afraid if left to the Republicans, very little of substance on HC will happen…at least they always seem to leave it to the Democrats…then do their damnest to stop them.
Premiums ARE going up - We agree on that (as I stated above) - and for the same reason…demographics. I hardly need Durbin or any other politician to tell me that.
Its really a matter of HOW to pay for it…Taxpayers are going to pay…and apparently Private business is going to pay as well.
More deflection: But it relates to the future of healthcare in this country as I see it:
http://www.moneyandmarkets.com/more-retirement-disasters-6-38326
By Web Master on 03-22-10
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