Comments on: Wildlife Officials Worried by Trophy Poachers
By jimbo on 11-11-09
Until some serious heavy duty punishments are handed down for ANY type of poaching, not just “trophy quality” animals, nothing is going to change. Its all just a slap on the wrist right now.
By CJ on 11-11-09
WHEN THEY STOP ALLOWING HUNTING FOR TROPHIES, THEN MAYBE SOMETHING WILL CHANGE!!! Until then they will shoot anything they see!!! Another perfect example of the mentality of knuckledragging killers!!!
By Kokanee on 11-11-09
The only “knuckledragging” is you getting up from your nest in the trees.LOL
By jimbo on 11-11-09
My God CJ, give it a rest. Hunting is here, always will be. How could you be so dense. It has been explained on here dozens of times, and you still don’t get it. One more time, open your mind just a little, do your best, try to comprehend. Hunters, and hunting conservation groups are the only people out there doing the work, paying the bills, protecting the habitat, ensuring there is wild game for future generations of people to enjoy. People like you do NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING for wildlife. State game agencies’ budgets come soley from this money, licenses, fees, excise taxes, etc. Is wildlife monitoring, law enforcement important to you? So you don’t “kill” any animals, so what!!! You need to get past the blood and understand the big picture. You have such tunnel vision, your types just keep spouting off the same crap. Knuckdraggers, chest pounders, trophy this, killing that. That is such a tiny part of wildlife conservation, notice I said conservation, not preservation. So pipe down, go buy a conservation license and some tags, burn them if you want, but at least you can say you contributed. Go to a banquet and buy some raffle tickets, something, anything. But stop the ignorant babbling about stopping hunting, blah blah, waaa waaa. You people that don’t “kill” seem to think you are soooooo enlightened, but you really are just pathetic, closed minded, blind mice. Your stupid post contradicts itself anyway!! If someone is a trophy hunter, they don’t just shoot anything they see. If they shoot anything they see, they aren’t a hunter, just a low-life poacher. And most animals taken by hunters are not anywhere near ‘trophy” quality, they are between 2.5 -3.5 years old, or they are does or cows. That translates into meat, food, NOT TROPHIES, do you get that??? And who is to say some whitetail forkie isn’t a trophy to someone either. Do you even set foot in the woods? Somehow I doubt it. I guarantee, hunters have more respect for their quarry than you could ever possibly understand. You live in a Disney movie. You have no clue as to how tough these animals are, how they live, where they go, what they do. You chase elk around in these mountains and you develop a very healthy respect for them, a respect that could never be attained in Glacier Park, or in a book or TV show. Gosh I would love to drag your rear end out to the woods, over Labor Day weekend into the southfork. You would come out with a very different attitude.
Anyway, I am done with these stupid repetitive, non-productive arguments, why I wasted this much time I don’t know. Debating on the internet, my gosh, what a joke.LOL
By CJ on 11-11-09
Jimbo: You have no idea who I am or what I do. You have no idea of where I go and what woods I have hiked into. You accuse anyone against hunting/killing of being an idiot that “comes from California” and lives in a world without knowledge of how the game works. Well get it strait, this is not a game. Yeah, you are GAME hunters and you pay money to the state to play your GAME. You put your GAME trophy on the wall and proudly display the head of a beautiful DEAD animal for all to see. You say you help conservation well this is just another cop out that allows you to chug off into the forest and smugly stand over your trophy kill and yell to your gods of hunting that you have MADE THE GRADE! Remember knuckledraggers, you are among the killers that have no respect for the animals, only your RIGHT to kill them. As I have said before, why don’t y’all just heard them into a corral and start shootin. Would be a lot easier right? Then you won’t have to walk so far and get your boots dirty but you still got your trophy!!! Don’t like it…too bad. I Shoot with a camera and THEY DON’T KILL!!! And your right Jimbo, it is a waste of time, better git that gun loaded and git out there before they are all gone! You might have to come home with a rabbit to feed the family! Oh boy, I better becareful or you might just shoot a grizzly for the hell of it!
By mitch on 11-11-09
some will shoot anything and everything, obviously, and this isn’t even in the same ball park as hunters. These people are slobs, plain and simple.Do not assume those of us who choose not to kill are not contributing anything to the cause of wildlife. This proves how little you know of what you talk about. It’s only by a twist of fate that the money you pay for you licenses goes to help the wildlife. You buy that tag so you can legally kill, it has nothing to do with preserving nature.
Do not ever think that hunting with firearms will not end, and it’s getting closer by the day when we have idiots like these gutless poachers roaming the woods.
By CJ on 11-12-09
GOOD FOR YOU MITCH! I hope your right and someday soon hunting for TROPHIES will be stopped dead EVERYWHERE in the world! However, the sad truth remains, poaching will still go on because if you add to the hunt the FUN of avoiding capture, makes it even more exciting for these good ole boys…and boys they are!
By Kokanee on 11-12-09
Here you go again demonizing the world CJ . You call everyone names accuse every one of being a murdering redneck immature immoral human. Then prop up another comment by calling us criminals. I sure hope you never need anything from us CJ this is a fairly small town.
By CJ on 11-12-09
Believe me KOK if I ever NEEDED anything from guys like you I would be in deep dodo. The ONLY thing you guys know who to do is be exactly what you said above “murdering, redneck, immature, immoral humans”. I believe i got that right, you certainly did. And indeed, you are criminals. Moral Criminals that have no respect for life of any kind. I bet you are a trapper too! Would not surprise me and I bet you use the conibear trap. The killer. But if not, you are probably one of the trappers that doesn’t check his/her trap lines for days because they don’t have to…no law! Come on KOK, you are a man of honor yeah? Tell the truth!
By Kokanee on 11-12-09
My honor is beyond reproach from the likes of you. I have trapped,fished,hunted,and lived off the land for many years like my ancestors before me. My conscience is guilt free I killed to eat and still do. The truth is I know who I am, I know my limitations and share this world with all kinds of humanity with no bigotry. I forgive those who transgress against me but that does not stop me from giving the ignorant a lesson from time to time.
By CJ on 11-12-09
OHHHHHH I FORGOT: THE TRUTH ABOUT YOU GWH’S AND TRAPPERS WORKING FOR CONSERVATION:State wildlife agencies emerged as an extension primarily of the hunting industry. These agencies served the interests of consumptive users by “procuring the game, offering sex-selective hunting, stocking of species, manipulation of habitat, killing of predators and other management activities designed to serve and build a constituency of consumptive users and to return revenues to the agencies on an annual basis” (Dunlap 1988). Since the 1930s, state and federal game agencies have rarely deviated from their role as service providers for hunting, trapping, and fishing interests. Pacelle observers that from the agencies’ perspective, “the North American Wildlife Conservation Model has been enormously successful as most game species are sufficiently abundant to be shot every year by hunters on a sustained yield basis. This practice has returned revenues to the states and, for a time, maintained adequate funding for the system” (1998:44).Here’s another exerpt: The costs of a trapping license for Montana residents (12 years and older) is $28, split into $8 for a conservation license and $20 for the actual trapping license. While about 1,700 trapping licenses were sold by FWP in 1990, the number has recently spiked to 4,187 sold for the 2007-08 season (FWP Newsletter 2007). While the increase in demand of trapping licenses is most likely caused by lucrative fur prices, the renaissance of a strong fur market can be attributed to the increasingly growing demand for fur in Europe and Asia. Currently, a trapper fetches the following prices for animals’ pelts: Bobcat ($450); wolverine ($300); fisher ($87); marten ($77); badger ($43); otter ($40); coyote ($37); raccoon ($33); beaver ($25); red fox ($22); mink ($15); weasel ($5.70); skunk ($5.30); muskrat ($3.23). Now there’s your meal ticket KOK and again: ). However, given that FWP receives revenues for the selling of trapping licenses and that their furbearer coordinator is an avid trapper himself, the decision-making process around wildlife management is dominated by a consumptive users’ mentality—hunters and trappers controlling state agencies. This is evidenced by the fact that the FWP commission, consisting of six commissioners, is exclusively composed of hunters. The commissioners, appointed by the Governor, set the rules and make final decisions about hunting and trapping regulations; in effect, the regulators and the regulated are one and the same. SO there ya go boys, the truth is OUT. I am a member of Montanans for Trap Free Public Lands and if anyone is interested in helping us collect sigs to get this on the ballot next year contact me at cjrolphe@bresnan.net. Did you know that trapping is BANNED IN 8 COUNTRIES BUT NOT THIS ONE!
By Kokanee on 11-12-09
So as long as were in control over this…....You have no point CJ other than you do not agree with the taking of any animals. When and if you and your ilk get their way Myself and many like minded individuals will simply continue to eat. Outlaws have always been tolerated and loved when some nice hindquarters were hung on the back porch anonymously for a hungry family. You will never ever stop hunting, run along now and be a good person.
By CJ on 11-12-09
Your response doesn’t surprise me KOK. Your mindset will always allow you to justify your belief system. You are a warrior and nothing will stand in your way, not even the law!
By Scott on 11-12-09
I can promise you CJ that these animals that we hunt have far better lives than farmed animals:
http://www.goveg.com/factoryFarming.asp
A bullet from a high powered rifle is incredibly humane.
I don’t hear east coast liberals like you yelling at people who walk into fast food restaurants or BBQ joints. You know why you don’t do that, especially in Montana? You would get knocked out on the front steps because most people don’t appreciate people like you telling them what they can and cannot do. We are not prey animals and we certainly are not Herbivores and I doubt you are vegetarian and wear clothes made from plants(hemp perhaps
)
People like you like to be little e-thugs who get off on posting ignorant opinions like the ones above. You have no concept of reality and while those like you are perfectly willing to buy leather coats and eat a nice burger you have no problems crucifying honest people who put their money where their mouths are and help support the wild game and the land they live on.
Back to the topic, I agree that the penalties for poaching should be much harsher. The meat on an older animal is generally much tougher which makes for a less appetizing meal anyways.
By Kokanee on 11-12-09
I agree scott I prefer 2&1/2year old elk myself. Here is an interesting thought on how to prevent so much poaching. Have all the hunts after they drop their antlers the only problem is you cannot tell the difference between male and female but how many head hunters would stop participating in the hunt. another way would be a subsistence hunt based on immediate family members and annual income with anyone making over a certain amount automatically going into a draw,after a successful applicant completes his hunt he/she would not be eligible for seven more years.Drastic yes but look whats going on quasi hunters with no respect for what they have.
By Kokanee on 11-13-09
Thank you Mr.Mark. I have taken deer out of season a long time ago when my yearly income as a carpenter/wood gatherer/mushroom picker/ and huckleberries by the gallon was 9368.00 for the year. They taste a little better than there rutty fall counterparts. This type of trophy poaching has come about full force in the last decade. I believe that it is mostly brought about by people willing to pay big bucks for animals of trophy status. I personally know of some “hunters” that actually paid many thousands of dollars in tips to a certain guide to bring him back a nice one and keep his mouth shut. This fellow along with his partners in crime stayed in camp the whole week sucking down the equivalent of a 1/2 keg of whiskey playing poker and frolicking with the “wives” they had bought. Whoops I meant brought. How did this guide feel about that, it was the end of his guiding career but he never spoke out Cause his little family needed the money. Theodore Roosevelt said something to effect of this on the subject of making money in the west. Do not look lowly on the young men of the west for many have had to don a mask just to make ends meet. As they grow older more honest occupations become available and soon settle into a civilized maturity. That is not verbatim but it sums it up for a lot of things here that go on in the west. That is not condoning but understanding, laws are laws.
By CJ on 11-13-09
KOK, I have to appologize. Your last post was indeed exceptional. I am not against hunting for food, never have been. I am against TROPHY hunting and your suggestion would be fantastic. However, I was watching the boob tube last nite and i realized that MILLIONS of dollars are spent on hunting equipment and our stores would not know what to do if they did not have thousands of hunters buying their equipment and clothes. If your logic were enforced (which it can’t be because of the money involved) it would then be a great hunting state. This is the most intelligent post I have ever seen by an honorable hunter. Sadly there are not more out there like you. Again, my appologies KOK. Now if we could just get rid of the trappers all would be well.
In a similar vein, the November 1872 issue of American Sportsman magazine tried to define what makes a true sportsman: “It is not the mere killing of numbers, much less in the mere killing at all; it is not in the value of things killed, though it is not sportsmanship, but butchery and wanton cruelty, to kill animals which are valueless as food…”
If anything, our wildlife heritage takes the side of conservation, not trapping, unless we are to return to our survivalist “tradition.” As Montana’s own world-renowned bear expert (and former trapper) Chuck Jonkel bluntly states, “The days of trapping are over. It’s now time to preserve Montana’s wildlife.”
By Kokanee on 11-13-09
No offense taken no need to apologize your compassion is admirable. Speak out loud and clear in what you believe but during the silence take time to reflect on what has been said. Walk proudly forth waving your flag of conviction just remember not to walk so fast as what you step over might be a revelation.
By CJ on 11-13-09
Thank you for that one. I will be copying it for my wall!!! Would you like to sign our petition against trapping?
By mitch on 11-13-09
cj, where do I go to find this petition?
By CJ on 11-13-09
e-mail me at cjrolphe@bresnan.net and I will get you hooked up. Thanks Mitch.
By Kokanee on 11-13-09
Trapping is dying on it’s own when I go to sportsman’s meetings around the country I look around the room at a whole lot of gray hair. The work involved in running a trap line is in itself the death bell for today’s generation. CJ I often wonder if the urge to pursue this type of endeavor is passed on through the womb by some genetic code and as we are getting farther away from a time when such activities were warranted the urge to pursue it is fading. The axe has fallen but little convulsions of life still remain and when they stop I will mourn it’s passing. There will always be a little wild in me that yearns to live a life that I cannot have anymore. So I will pass on signing any petition that would shoot a terminal old friend who will surely pass away silently in the night on his own accord.
By CJ on 11-13-09
KOK, I wish you were right, however, I have personally been confronted by the young that still believe this is an exceptable form of “hunting”. If you do not believe me, go to this site or many others that promote to children:http://www.captaindaves.com/buckshot/children.htm
http://fwp.mt.gov/content/getItem.aspx?id=39779
Just check out the age limits for trappers. These are the LAWS of the State of Montana. Also checkout the time frame for checking the traps. Can anyone imagine being caught in a leghold or conibear trap for 48 hours, and do you think they really check them every 48 hours when they are running a 200 mile trap line! Yah right!!!
Trapping is not dying believe me. There are more trappers today than ever (4187 in the 2008-09 season)! The value of the pelts has tripled and so the hunt is on. We will exterminate our wild animals within the next decade at this rate!!!
Here’s one for you from the state:
http://fwp.mt.gov/content/getItem.aspx?id=38482
Check out the youth trapping camp!!!
By Kokanee on 11-13-09
We are getting off the subject I am sure but before they shut it down I will say this,being from the trenches a private knows a little more than a general. These surges in fur prices will fall, there are warehouses full of leftover furs that couldn’t be sold in years past. True there are recruiters but they are trying to continue a legacy that is gone they know it but want to pass on the knowledge. The numbers are always high during bad economic times people are trying anything to make an extra dollar. Once they start buying traps and all the equipment needed they soon run out of gas money. Trapping rarely starts before december first and some years we would not start till later for lack cold temperatures. The hides would simply not be thick enough to bring the best money. So around the middle of december or later you have the holiday to spend money on if you are a family man very seldom will you be allowed to forget this. So do not worry that more trappers are being born this too shall pass. Oh one other thing just because you can buy a tool does not mean you know how to use it.
By Kokanee on 11-13-09
I forgot to add we would check our lines once every 24 hours you see certain other creatures would pick up on this and sometimes they would have an opportunistic feast at our expense. The length of a line is determined by a lot of things. Mode of transportation is the biggest snowmobile and snowshoes for the high country you are not going too run 200 miles of traps. Each set takes time to re-bait freshen up and conceal then if you are fortunate enough to have something in your trap you still have to deal with that when you get back. Many long days of that will sort out the hardy imagine bringing home your groceries that had been frozen solid then having to thaw them enough to handle while at the same time separating the eggs from the bread. My point is not many will endure what it takes they may buy a few traps might even catch a few but it will not last.
By Kokanee on 11-13-09
Well Mr.Mark I must be an enigma. I have nursed all sorts of things large and small that I have found over the years knowing that the same fawn with the broken leg on the highway very well might be in my freezer one day. Cannot you accept you are not that far removed from your past that the very reason your family survived was for skills such as these. Does that not intrigue you too know what it was like.
By CJ on 11-14-09
Yes Mark, I was there most of the day. We did great thanks to people like you. We had very few that said no and MANY that said yes and signed! It was a great feeling to know that so many were behind us!!! KOK, I am sorry you just don’t get it. You and people like you are (yes) a thing of the past but just dont know it. When you and others like you realize that and begin to understand the reasons behind our horror at what you do, perhaps you too will take a moment to reflect on the value of life and look at what you are doing with a different mindset. Things are not better KOK, things are worse and we will do everything we can to change that. Take a look at this: During the 2004-05 trapping season, Tio, a Great Pyrenees, was caught in a leghold trap. When the trapper found him, Tio was shot and thrown over a ravine. A year later, Annie, a German shepherd, died a gruesomely slow death by suffocation in a Conibear trap set near the trailhead of Bear Creek in the Bitterroot Valley. In March 2007, a Border Collie named Cupcake, died in a Conibear trap set along Rock Creek, a popular recreational area east of Missoula. Cupcake’s guardian Filip had never heard of trapping. He did not know how to help his dog Cupcake, who choked to death in Filip’s arms while the trap held his dog’s throat in its merciless grip. Most recently, Logan, a yellow Labrador retriever, died in a snare set for coyotes on private land along a river in the Bitterroot Valley. His guardian is still struggling with the unexpected and tragic loss of his beloved companion, it took Logan 5 long minutes to strangle to death.
These are just examples of “companion” animals that die horrible deaths. Imagine the number of wild animals that are taken every year. How many traps can be set by 4187 people that have licenses now! It is unimaginable!!! Oh, as to the pelts not getting sold? Wrong, they are selling to asia and europe with gusto. Check it out!
By Kokanee on 11-14-09
CJ your facts are fiction I called two fur buyers one in Canada one here in the united states. Furs will be down this year and the one in the united states is still setting on furs from two years ago. I do not argue with you on something I do not know personally. Those deaths of domestic animals was tragic yes but as infrequent as they occur I doubt that you will change anything. The numbers you speak of as far as Montana trappers is erroneous you see a houndsman has to have a trappers license to take bobcats and I feel that it is at least half of this number. Most trapping occurs at much higher elevations than fido or fifi roam and usually far from roads what ding dong wants his traps with a potentially expensive fur seen from a road or trail. Are you reading this if you are then slow down and take a deep breath.You are trying to paint a horrific picture without any paint. Millons of dogs and cats have succumbed to anti-freeze why not ban that chocolate is poison many other things. Puppy mills the list goes on CJ you do not like trapping that is fine but get your facts straight.
By CJ on 11-15-09
While at the voting site getting signatures for our petition, a man came to our table that told us that last winter he was skiiing with his dogs (can’t remember where) in our wilderness. He has two huskys. On his way back to his car, one of his huskys got caught in a conibear trap! He had never seen one before and was horrified! Now if you, KOK, no anything about these traps, you normally cannot open them without a tool. He had nothing. He used his hands. His dog was bloody and dying. He doesn’t know where he got the strength to open that trap but he did. He dislocated his shoulder doing it but the dog survived and he one armed it (skiing) with his disabled dog 18 MILES back to his car. This happened in 2008-9 season. Do you have a dog KOK? Do you care about your dog? Do you go hiking or skiing with your dog? If there is a buyer with skins left over from TWO YEARS AGO isn’t that DISGUSTING to you. It is to me. That means that these animals died for NOTHING. Your logic astounds me. You think people want to go “backwards” in history and “learn what it was like”? Well why don’t we go back in history and live in the dark ages..would that be satisfactory? Does your sense of our American rights include the devastation of the indians and blacks? Does that “intrigue you to know what it was like”? No? This does not fit with your idea of the “wild(erness) man”? Please please explain the difference because I cannot see it. I would bet you and others like you do not live in cabins in the woods 12 months of the year. Yours would be fitted with all the modern conveniences, right? You would have a tv, microwave, computer (we all know that), a normal bed, chairs and tables, etc. You do not grow your own food in your back yard, you go to the store to shop for your food and clothes. And yet, you justify killing (in any manner) of animals for food or trophy or money. The real problem here is the nature of man. The inherant reality of bloodlust whether he/she is in the wilderness setting traps, hunting animals or in the arenas of the world blowing each other away. Perhaps one day we will come to a higher level of conscienceness and it will bring with the reality of how precious life is. All life. Before we end our world as we know it…my prayer.
By CJ on 11-15-09
By the way, don’t you consider bobcats wild animals or am i missing something. And, can you guarantee that every trap you set (or someone else sets) will catch the animals they want. No way!!!
By Kokanee on 11-15-09
CJ I do not know where all the anger comes from. Again take a deep, deep breath. Yes bobcats are animals, bloodlust has nothing to do with it and as far as a connibear is concerned I have never seen one big enough to body hold a husky. Not saying they do not make them just never seen one for sale. There is another thought, you complain about the trapping of furbearers in the U.S. but the ones buying the furs is asia now if I know anything I would rather them buy a raccoon hide from the U.S. than continue to take endangered species from there own land. I am fully aware of all the things you speak of. Ignorance of wildlife or the impact Europeans had on this continent does not evade or is lost on me. How is it you only speak of the atrocities and never the good we have done to bring back wildlife for all to experience. You talk as if we have made these laws of conservation for us only do you not benefit!? And as far as leftover furs does that not show of what I spoke that the whole world is using furs less. Trapping is dying you just want it to pass now and will stomp your feet and throw a tantrum. Think CJ this is a worldly problem that will not be solved by your petition drive or a legislated bill. CJ you do not know how I have lived or what I have experienced in my life but I will tell you this Life is precious that is why with the time that I have I use it to think first and act secondly rarely do I get a second chance so why not use my time wisely. Running willy nilly around trying to stop all that offends me would be unproductive and a waste of my precious time.
By Kokanee on 11-15-09
By law all traps must be tagged with the owners identification. If it is not then it was somebody that is not a trapper. Trappers are not the Vlad you portray them to be. Most are well balanced individuals unlike some of our counterparts.
By CJ on 11-15-09
Sorry KOK, you still don’t get it. Watch this video and maybe you will:
http://www.symphonyofscience.com/
By Kokanee on 11-15-09
The connection I feel to this earth goes beyond what most will ever feel. I personally know many of my partners that have done more to lessen their impact on this old world, we have lived closer to this earth and know we are stewards of it. Excessive consumption of our natural resources is a sin but until money is a thing of the past it will continue. Sorry you as an individual feel so confounded over this, it is exasperating. Keep up the good fight CJ but know you do have allies in strange places.
By CJ on 11-15-09
Where does my anger come from? Well it started when i was on my knees in the water and mud trying to pry a trap off my dogs foot. It continued and increased when i called the authorities and they said it was legal. It increased more when I went on line and looked up “trapping” and read some of the atrocious sites on the subject and looked at the traps and what they do. I became incensed when human beings became down right nasty when we were tryiing to gather signatures to stop it. “Kill em all” was one distinct remark i remember. The problem KOK is that there are so many “knuckledraggers” out there and so few honorable hunters that do care. I guess my anger doesn’t help but sometimes it is either get mad or cry and tears don’t come easily any more, I have shed too many.
By CJ on 11-15-09
And I would have to disagree with you on the point that trappers are well balanced. I am sorry but ANYONE that can lay a trap and knows that it is going to SLOWLY KILL an animal cannot be well balanced. As is any man/woman that can abuse any animal or child. We are all keepers of this world and we are doing a damn poor job of it.
By Kokanee on 11-15-09
CJ there are 30 million acres of federal and public lands in Montana. Not all are fit for recreation during trapping season of which the big money furbearers only runs from dec.1st to feb15th with a quota which could be closed sooner if that is met. My point is this instead of trying to close the whole state why not target certain areas to exclude trapping instead of forcing your will on the whole state compromise is better than nothing.
By Kokanee on 11-15-09
You asked if I had dogs, yes. By my own choice there always leashed and the yard is fenced never have my dogs been allowed to run loose. That is what I do to keep my dogs under my control and observation.
By CJ on 11-16-09
Yes KOK, 35% of Montana is public lands. There is no reason for trapping on any part of those lands. There is plenty of private lands to trap on and I am sure with permission from the owners that would be a viable solution. I am the public and I do NOT give permission to trap on public lands. That is our premise, we are the public and have a right to say what happens on public land. As to your dogs KOK, it is sad that you do not consider yourself in control enough of them to take them for walks without leashes. Mine are never on leashes and i can take them anywhere. The problem is that they do like to run in the woods and if there is a trap there there is a possibility of them getting caught in it. Why should I have that problem. Why should I have to worry if they are going to get caught in a trap set for animals and that should not be there. According to the state laws, they can set traps as close as 300 yards to the trails. That is unbelievable. And some areas as close as 100 yards. Why should I have to WORRY that my dogs are gonna step in traps on public land on public trails! By the way, the large conibear trap is to catch BEARS! It will take a husky easily! It did. We will fight this and I will continue to walk my dogs every day where ever I choose. For my health and my dogs health it has always been that way. They are healthy balanced dogs that WANT to run and play but are very loyal to me so I don’t have to worry. I can even let them out in the front yard of my neighborhood to play while i am there and they are excellent in listening to me. I am sorry you do not trust yourself and your dogs and have to keep them in jail so much. Oh and by the way, I feed the ducks in my pond every day and they are loose when i do that. They are trained by word never to chase from the shore and they don’t. They don’t swim so I don’t have to worry about that but I have about 80 ducks that come in every day for food and they are out there with me the whole time. So I would have to say, I keep my dogs under control and observation also, however, if there is a trap 100 yards off my trail then there is danger there and I will do everything I can to eliminate that danger. It is time to come out of the dark ages and join humanity and this is one place to start.
By Kokanee on 11-16-09
Gosh CJ I do not know where to start. I guess we will go with dog control you are both right and wrong on this one. Having called both flathead national forest and dnrc in helena this morning there are many areas where dogs can be off leash. There are caveats to that though certain areas do require leashes it is up to each areas administrator, and foremost they want your dogs under voice command and within eyesight at all times. Both the national forest and dnrc would prefer you to leash at all times it is just not a law. Hmmm maybe I should start a petition drive for leash laws.!! Dogs like there human counterparts do not always listen that is why we leash we feel that it keeps them out of trouble and makes us more responsible dog owners and their yard is sufficient in size to allow for lots of exercise. I will not chance their loyalty to me over the death of one wild animal. You wrote that you allow them to run in the woods loose that is just wrong!! Now I checked this morning with conibear there is NO bear trap made to hold a bear by the body it just is not possible. To use a quote from you “you just don’t get it do you” be responsible leash up.
By jimbo on 11-16-09
Carole, have you lost your mind? Have you ever held or seen a conibear trap? Do you even know what they look like? Or because it has “bear” in the name, people are out setting traps for bears? Nobody sets traps for bears, the more you type the more you show your complete ignorance. Do you know why you make no sense? Because when trapping season rolls around, the wittle bears are sweeping. LOL!!! It is ludacris to shut down millions of acres of public lands because a few people couldn’t control their dogs. Do you know how many times someone has said, my dog doesn’t chase deer, my dog doesn’t bite, my dog doesn’t do this or do that. What bunk. If your mutt is 100 yards away from you, it is not under your control, period. I take issue with many of these backcountry skiers taking their dogs out and not having them under control, chasing game in the dead of winter, expending energy running from some swamp collie, when they need everything they have to make it through winter. I have watched it. If you want to inhibit trapping in some of these highly recreated areas, I can see that, but to shut down the whole thing because you want to force your paradigm of life, down everyone’s throat, is wrong. Have you ever tried to get permission to do anything on private property? You think its just that easy don’t you. Viable solution, BS. Getting people to let you hunt, fish, or trap on their property is harder than trying to get you to understand ecology and conservation, it just isn’t going to happen.
By Kokanee on 11-16-09
Thanks Jimbo !!
By CJ on 11-16-09
1. A conibear trap is mean to hold by the HEAD. I am not an idiot!2. You guys don’t like my dogs loose? They are not under my control? Oh yes they are, just as much as a hunters dog is under their control. Yes, I use a whistle just like a hunter!
3. In your search for answers to my logic I would have to question yours. Your worry seems to be dogs chasing game in the winter. Let me ask you this, how many of those game animals are caught in your traps, left with broken legs or necks? How many of your game animals are caught by a dog? I would like to see that number. I don’t know of any ONE dog that can outrun a deer. I know mine can’t, yes she has tried and its laughable.
4. Your premise is that the game need everything they have got to make it through winter. I agree. One thing they don’t need is traps that blindside them when they are trying to stay alive. Another thing. You are so worried about our dogs running in the woods..our dogs don’t carry guns. Our dogs don’t lay traps. Our dogs don’t kill for the sake of killing, that is left to man. That joy is left to you knuckledraggers.
5. What, are you worried that my little snauzer is gonna kill your big elk or 4 point buck? Get real guys…you just want all them big critters available when you pull out your ak47s for hunting season.
6. You can’t win. You are history. Can’t get permission to trap on private lands…gee I wonder why! Well I and others like me are PUBLIC and we are going to STOP your permission to trap on PUBLIC LANDS TOO! Give it up and climb back into your caves boys!
By Kokanee on 11-16-09
When in doubt lash out!? Feral dogs and cats represent a huge part of wild game depredation in the U.S. that is fact. Conibears do both head and body, but are not used for bears.!! You always resort to name calling when we refuse to side with you on issues. I really like our debates CJ you say you want me to see things from your perspective yet you will not see ours. As far as the public is concerned the best you are going to be able to do is perhaps get is a little more stringent laws concerning placement of traps but the backlash is going to be leash laws mark my word with cup of coffee and a piece of pie. “Knuckledraggers” are partial to black coffee and warm apple pie with a little dollop of homemade vanilla. You know cause our cave kitchens are ill equipped for baking and such.
By CJ on 11-16-09
NO MARKET FOR TRAPPERS HUH KOK? GEE WHAT IS THIS:
http://www.furharvesters.com/furforecast.htm
By CJ on 11-16-09
NO MARKET KOK:
http://www.nafa.ca/auction/archive/NAFA_2009-05-16_WF.pdf
By Kokanee on 11-16-09
I misspoke you got me. You see in trappers speak when I say no market it usually means that they will buy your furs but at reduced price because there is no demand at this point. Marten, fisher,and lynx have always been the premium furs but you are on a quota system and they are generally fairly high in elevation which means more money to go after which means less people doing it.Then they do not even want other furs such as raccoon or coyote CJ you did not read the whole article call them and ask the number is on the page. (705) 495-4688 talk to them tell them you are thinking of laying some steel this winter and would it be worth it too invest in some traps and gear. Did you read my last post.
By Kokanee on 11-16-09
I meant Bobcats not lynx that is a closed season. Look at the avg. fur prices and tell me somebody is going to do this for a living. You are blowing this whole public lands trapping thing out of proportion. There are not that many people doing this.
By CJ on 11-17-09
There are a lot more than you think KOK and very vocal in a most unpleasant way, even threatening!
By jimbo on 11-17-09
Kok, I must commend you, you have the patience of Job. Seriously. You know where I can get some conimouse traps? Or some conicoon or coniyote traps?
Carole, really, stop typing. Quite the dog lover, can’t even spell the name of your own breed of dog.
Why would a deer or elk want to crawl in a cubby after a pile of meat? You think traps are littering the forest like a mine field? LOL!!!! This gets better every minute. HAHAHAHAHA!!!
Again, your ignorance rears its head again. Honestly, I don’t fault YOU, its quite obvious you get your info from those bunny hugging internet sites, not from the real world. You really need to get out more, or pay attention when you are out. You think dogs or one dog can’t kill deer? Really not that difficult. Happens every day. Deer and elk are built for bursts of speed, not endurance. Its easy for a dog to run them into the ground. Coyotes do it, doesn’t say much for those Schnauzers of yours, does it. I find it very odd you would admit that you let your dogs chase deer and you find it, umm, laughable? I thought you had them under control? Again, I have serious doubts of your understanding of the real world. Have you ever gone out to the woods in January or February and watched wintering game in zero or sub zero temps? You don’t have to catch them to kill them, just keep stressing them to the point the does abort fetuses or just flat die. You just don’t understand what these deer and elk go through to survive a winter, that is the lack of respect I mentioned earlier.
Landowners don’t want anybody on their land, not even dog walkers. I have had to have a lot of talks with people “just walking their dogs” on my property. But when these same landowners start getting damage from coyotes, beavers, coons, skunks, who do they start crying for? That is right, you can say it…....trappers!!!! “Please bring your conibeaver traps!! They are destroying my property”!!
Its not a game, nothing to win. But anyway, thanks for playing.
By Kokanee on 11-17-09
Again Jim you smite then you go I wished I could do the same. It is just astonishing the one sided arguments that they get away with. All I really want is respect and understanding from their side. They say we do not understand their points yet we are not the one with blinders on. It would be so easy for them to get an education in conservation here in this valley many brilliant people out there that are unbiased and willing to teach.
By Vud on 11-17-09
A total aside…but worth mentioning:
This is the wooley world of cyberspace. Keep your personal information PERSONEL !
In spite of recent posts to “come out from behind your screen name”, DON’T do it.
DON’T link your screen name to your real name, property address, and to a lesser extent, your E-mail address.
Just say: DON’T !
By jimbo on 11-17-09
Kok, so many of these guys with INCREDIBLE knowledge want to pass it on, but they are villified because they are true outdoorsmen, hunters, fishers, trappers. I have always thought trappers had the most knowledge of anyone. Out there when really nobody else is, watching what nobody else sees.
By Kokanee on 11-17-09
Very well put and agree wholly. Who knows more about the woods than somebody who has lived a life time making ends meet from what they gather.
By CJ on 11-17-09
VUD,,,thank you for the warning. Apparently one person knows who i am. Probably sent me a fake e-mail saying how supportive they are of our cause. The thing is, it doesn’t bother me. Of course I am not putting on my address but knowing my e-mail is not a problem to me. The knuckledraggers will always use brainless threats and stupidity to try to make their case. Fortunately, the good people of Montana see that this is an unnecessary evil which we can eliminate and we will. As to the spelling of my dogs breed, you got me Jimbo and by the way, I think I know you too and if you are who i think you are, you need to go back to the reservation with your traps!!! You are an antique and don’t belong in modern society. As to not getting informed, your trapping sites are very informative boys. I read them all the time to stay informed so watch what you say, you never know who’s watching!!!
By jimbo on 11-17-09
What threats have been levied against you dear. And talk about stupidity, go on keep typing.You put your email on here for everyone to see. A few keystrokes and mouse clicks, someones story unfolds in front of you, name, addy, everything. Its not brain surgery. I was kind, believe me.
Do you have something against people on the reservation? That is really nice. Look down your nose at folks often? Like I said keep typing, you are showing your true colors.
By Kokanee on 11-17-09
Wow is there a bigot on here. : person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance. I guess I was just to much of a knuckledragger to see, I will sulk back to my cave. lmao
By CJ on 11-18-09
Don’t worry boys, threats are common from knuckledraggers. And as to my being a bigot or racists, not hardly but Jimbo knows what I mean when I say I know who he is. So I just want him to KNOW THAT I KNOW WHO HE IS! The rest of you are just simpletons!
By jimbo on 11-18-09
LOL, Then lets talk, come talk to me if you know who I am. Please. You are just going to shock some completely unsuspecting guy.
Bottom line is, you snapped off a horrible comment, it is what it is, very sad. Shame on you, at least attempt an apology.
Now go on, scurry back over to the wolf thread and whine some more with your overbearing bunny hugging online buddies.
Again, what threats??
By Kokanee on 11-18-09
CJ if the definition fits wear with pride I am sure you could get a parade.
By grannysgadgets on 11-18-09
CJ said ” you need to go back to the reservation with your traps!!! You are an antique and don’t belong in modern society “. WOW, you run around kissing bunnies, hugging trees, and are a bleeding heart for the wolves. Sounds all nicey nice, BUT then you make a racial comment like that ?? I get the feeling that your really not that caring, just want to be on the other side of the fence. That is all good and well, would not want one with your attitude over here anyways !!! again WOW
By Kokanee on 11-18-09
Granny where have you been ??
By CJ on 11-18-09
Ok, if your not the Jimbo I know and who knows me well, then perhaps i do owe you an appology. This has nothing to do with race, it has to do with thought processes, which are without heed to race. Those of you that cannot understand (and most of you won’t) I am very sorry for YOU. You will fight till your dying day to continue your tradition of massacure whether it be animals in traps or hunting for trophies. And don’t tell me its for food, that is BS. You like killing and that is all there is to it. Your excuses are lame and it is sad that the only way you can justify your position is your stupid remarks. Again, Jimbo, if you are not who I think you are then just go back to your cave. They wouldn’t allow you on the reservation. By the way, we are keeping the threats for amunition, so be careful.
By jimbo on 11-18-09
Good grief, it really is for food, (you did not really pay any attention to earlier posts) why is that soooooooo hard to believe? You are so filled with misguided anger and hate, you can’t even begin to see reality, all you see is blood and death. You should really see the elk I killed this year. Hardly a “trophy”, but to some it may be a trophy, any doe may be a trophy. But I know it will feed my family for a year. It fed a bunch of ravens, a lion and her young, and most likely some other small fury creatures that don’t get much worship like ermine and weasels, and it enriched the soil!!! Plus all the wonderful smoked sausage, brats, pepper sticks that I make all on my own. Many have told me its the best they have ever had. I’d even let you have some CJ, because I don’t have all this pent up HATE for PEOPLE, because they don’t agree with me.Anyway, I will quit messing with you, and get on headed back to the cave to boil some traps, sharpen some knives, clean my gun, and grind some meat.
Its been, well…......... interesting.
By grannysgadgets on 11-18-09
Kokanee : I see you have been fighting the fine fight ! At least you are not one to give up on people.I have been ” Hunting”, we took two does, then I had meat to cut up, wrap, and get in the freezer. Still hoping for that elk, but it’s not looking to possible now !!!
You ??
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